Torturing babies in the name of science

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Dennis
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Torturing babies in the name of science

Post by Dennis »

Here's a 30 second clip from the documentary 'Psychiatry, An Industry of Death (www.cchr.org/documentary), in which you can see how babies were tortured by scientists who called themselves behaviorists. I wonder how the lives of these babies turned out as adults.

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Last edited by Dennis on Thu Mar 22, 2007 1:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Clare
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Post by Clare »

Dennis

Thank you for showing us this. Its outrageous. You say I wonder how the lives of these babies turned out as adults. Most likely many turned out to be people like me; damaged, hurt - for many years barely alive.

But thanks to primal therapy kicking back now!!


As usual, no need for many words on my part, just quiet action!

Clare
Clare

Pat

Hello

Post by Pat »

Hello,

Just found this site (thank you Clare!)

Hope to hear more about you all in the days to come.

Pat Torngren

(Cape Town, SA)

Patricia

Thanks!

Post by Patricia »

Hi Dennis
Thank you for this important piece of atrocious history. I'm teaching intro psyc and will likely teach child development next year and will be sure to present this to students so they can see behind some of psyc. theory presented in the curriculum.
Thanks again,
Patricia

Shelley

Post by Shelley »

This may not be relevant to any of you, but I thought everyone should know that CCHR, the organization that made this documentary, is affiliated with the Church of Scientology. I believe it is their goal to eliminate psychiatry altogether. I assume this would include all forms of psychotherapy, including primal.

Shelley

Cesar Tort

Post by Cesar Tort »

You are right: CCHR rejects all kind of therapy.

BTW, Dennis, what do you think about this critique of Primal?

Patricia

CCHR

Post by Patricia »

Thanks Shelley for sharing this information regarding the origin of this clip. CCHR puts out, in my experience, quite a bit of interesting and informative anti-psychiatry material, but the focus on indoctrination is appauling.

Thanks Cesar, for pointing out this link to a cautionnary note about primal.

I personally have grown and learned a lot (and continue to) from my experience with deep feeling therapy. However, I have also observed very problematic dynamics in the primal world... including some of the things mentionned in the cautionnary note: individuals who don't fare well after many years of therapy and who are told that the problem is in "them" without attention to the potential problem with the actual therapy process or therapeutic relationship, poor boundaries between therapists and clients, legitimized act-outs instead of working through, cultish feel...

Patricia

Bookish

Post by Bookish »

Hi Patricia,

There are sources for the nasty J.B. Watson experiments which have more credibility than CCHR. Wikipedia articles cannot be relied upon as unbiased and accurate, but they do give references to reputable sources. The famous Little Albert experiment by J.B. Watson has been heavily criticised as ethically unsound. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Albert_experiment

Personally, what I find more shocking is the effect his childrearing methods had on his own children. I wrote about it previously on the Daniel Mackler forum. His son Billy committed suicide -- as you can discover from this article on the website of Clayton State University:
...although B.F. Skinner got to brag that his baby in a box grew up healthy and happy, Watsons application of science to child-rearing lacks that testimonial validity: William, the older of his and Rosalies two sons, committed suicide at age 40, just four years after John Watsons death.
http://a-s.clayton.edu/mccarty/PSYC3540 ... atson.html
But there is more. Sonoma State University in California has some lecture notes about J.B. Watson and his family:
11. THE END OF THE STORY
  • 1957 -- APA awarded Watson its highest order, the gold medal for distinguished lifetime contribution to psychology. Didnt go to the convention in person, but sent Billy to accept it on his behalf.
  • Drank more and harder. Died in 1958 of chirrosis of the liver.
  • Billy became a respected, successful psychiatrist in New York. Became Freudian and turned against his fathers behaviorism. His first suicide attempt was stopped by younger brother Jimmy. Second attempt was successful.
  • Watson & Marys son Little John was a rather rootless person who often sponged on his father. Plagued throughout life with stomach trouble and intolerable headaches. Died in his early 50s of bleeding ulcers.
  • Jimmy also had chronic stomach problems for years, but after intensive analysis is alive and doing well.
  • John & Marys daughter Polly attempted suicide over and over and over and over.
  • Grandaughter Mariette: We couldnt talk about feelings, we couldnt talk about affection, we couldnt talk about touching, but we could talk about sex. (Big Johns influence was keenly felt.) Years later, when I was crossing a congested boulevard in Los Angeles, I took Moms hand, but she pulled it away. Dont. People will think were lesbians. Went through therapy and appears from her biography to be living a reasonbly successful, healthy life.
http://www.sonoma.edu/users/d/daniels/Watson.html
Notice that stomach problems affected two of his sons. Watson was an advocate of scheduled feeding.

Bookish

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Dennis
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Post by Dennis »

Patricia, welcome. I think there's a lot of atrocity in the history of psychiatry and psychology. And that's not just on animals, but there were and still are many cruel experiments on kids and adults. For some reason, as soon as it's connected somehow to science, people seem to have no boundaries in inflicting pain. Still, people at universities are being taught that these people were some kind of heroes. Here's a website with information on just that: http://www.fireflysun.com/index.php

Shelley, CCHR is connected to the Church of Scientology, but at their website they mention that CCHR (the Citizens Commission on Human Rights) is a non-profit, public benefit organization dedicated to investigating and exposing psychiatric violations of human rights. It also ensures that criminal acts within the psychiatric industry are reported to the proper authorities and acted upon.

I'm aware that Scientology has its flaws and I used to avoid mentioning any sources because of their bad reputation. Just remember that some years ago people in Germany boycotted a movie with Tom Cruise in it. But then I started to look more into it and realized that much of the allegations made towards CCHR (and Scientology) in regard to the exposure of psychiatric and pharmaceutical abuse, come from the psychiatric community and the multi-billion dollar pharmaceutical industry. CCHR has actually done a great deal on exposing abuse and their sources can be checked by anyone. And I always believe that anyone should inform him or herself with as many sides as possible. Does CCHR also reject Scientology's form of therapy?

Cesar, I've read that article before because BB mentioned it a few years ago at John Speyrer's forum. I don't disagree with it and I never understand why anyone would ask a lot of money to someone who has been damaged in his or her childhood and suffer from that as a result. It's known that most people who seek therapy are middle and upper class. Paying a lot of money, strengthens the believe that the therapy should work (because you're paying for it) and also forces you to continue because people see it as an investment into their mental and physical health. What some people expected when they visited Janov's Institute, that they would come out healthy if they would just do the exercises and the meetings and all would be taken care of. It doesn't work like that. There have been many abuses in Primal therapy and deep feeling therapies because you're dealing with primal feelings. In a way you can compare it to computer software. If the program isn't working according its potential, you can work your way around it or try to live with it. But if you know how to alter the source code, or know someone else who can, then any changes can be very beneficial or totally disastrous depending on the knowledge of the source code.

I also believe Primal Theory underestimates the teen years. That's why this forum also deals with the discoveries that Alice Miller made. On the other hand, a person saying that the first 10 years were great and 'daddy treated me like a princess', doesn't mean much objectively. Denial can come in many shapes and forms. And treating a kid like a princess doesn't sound like healthy parenting to me, either.

Something else: Last week I was watching a bit of a documentary on the Discovery Channel, called The Face of Evil, where they examined if serial killers were born evil or made evil. I was watching Jonathan Pincus, who believes there are three factors constant in the life of a serial killer: child abuse, prior mental disease and brain damage (gave an example that one of them fell out of a tree at the age of 6). They tested his hypotheses on child abuse and concluded that it wasn't the case with all serial killers and they gave as example Ted Bundy. According to the statement of his mom in court, she 'treated him like a prince' and they couldn't find any reports of child abuse and therefore concluded that there wasn't any child abuse. How scientific that is, I don't know, but I'm sure there were terrible events he suffered as a child. Of course from then on, the documentary went into the chemical imbalance theory and genetic factors and I lost my interest there.

BB, thanks for mentioning this. Many psychologists made the worst parents. I still see this around me.

Dennis

Cesar Tort

Post by Cesar Tort »

I have read some book reviews of Pincus? book. What I find it most outrageous about emotionally blindness is what happened to me with Breggin?s editor. I still find it incredible that the only scholarly journal devoted to the debunking of psychiatry is so reluctant to publish anything related to the trauma model of mental disorders.

Society lives in denial, even critics of psychiatry are Holocaust deniers. The entire world is emotionally blind. To use my language, only Neanderthals could imagine that a serial killer could have faulty genes and spend millions in futile research.

The experience I have had with emotionally-blind mankind is that, when I start to talk about parental abuses ?which reach the level of suffering in Auschwitz and even more? they immediately dissociate even if I point out to them the published literature, such as John Modrow?s, who survived an all-out emotional attack by his parents and became temporarily mad.

In our e-mail discussion, the editor of Breggin?s journal not only rejected this kind of autobiographical evidence, but a couple of 2004 scholarly books about the trauma model. The irony is that the journal publishes papers by those authors, as long as the theory that parents cause psychoses is not mentioned. The journal doesn?t even try to rebut the theory: it?s taboo.

The same happens with my brothers and sisters. I find no words to express my frustration in trying to convey the simple idea that dad and mom?s behavior hurt that that of blocking entire and vital sectors of your hard C disk. Yes: all of us dissociated in our childhood and teens due to the problem of attachment to the perp and the impossibility to escape our parents? home. But to think that it is impossible to mention, even in passing, the trauma model to adults like those who are in charge of Breggin?s journal gives the picture of the level of Neanderthalism we are living with in present-day society.

Dennis, I believe Daniel did a good job in exposing Ellie van Winkle. You did a splendid job in exposing Miller. Isn?t it time to expose Janov?

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Post by Dennis »

Cesar, like you I'm also appalled by the emotional blindness in so many people. Next time someone says: 'my parents did the best they could, they didn't know better', answer it with: but do YOU want to know better? And then it turns out many don't WANT to know better. And their kids can say in the future: 'hey, my parents didn't know better.' The circle is complete.

Again, reading your experiences with Breggin and Szasz is revealing and I'm sorry to hear that they didn't reply to your excellent critiques. Have you asked Daniel if he can drop off your Breggin letters to his office in New York, so you know for sure he has read them?

I wonder, where in my posts do you read that I idealize Arthur Janov? Janov got so stripped in John Speyrer's forum, that I don't see any reason to repeat that here as well. I only know Janov through his books, which are all well written, with many case histories. His institute and what he and his wife are doing there, is another matter. When I read that they also give some patients anti-depressants and that even France Janov swallows these pills, is totally wrong. The offspring Primal Therapy had, is even worse. That's the therapeutic part of it. Primal also shows unmistakably cause and effect, and can be valuable to acknowledge and prevent mental illness.

A few days ago I heard a Hollywood actor on TV say how he suffered from anxiety attacks. His colleague asked what that was all about. He said it's really like you feel you're dying. He was on the common daily medication. This person doesn't know, has never read, and never heard anything that is related to the real case of such irrational feeling. If he had, he wouldn't need to suppress it, he wouldn't need to have it control his life. He would have to go with that feeling and 'die'. Just like he most likely experienced during birth or shortly after that. The only difference is that he now is strong enough to survive this feeling of dying.

Dennis

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Post by Guest »

There have been many abuses in Primal therapy and deep feeling therapies because you're dealing with primal feelings. In a way you can compare it to computer software. If the program isn't working according its potential, you can work your way around it or try to live with it.
Are you comparing human feelings to computer software???!!! Chemical imbalance theorists will love that! I'm sure half of them are computer nerds... by nature, if not by profession...
But if you know how to alter the source code, or know someone else who can, then any changes can be very beneficial or totally disastrous depending on the knowledge of the source code.
Genetic theorists will tell you the source code is DNA!
I also believe Primal Theory underestimates the teen years. That's why this forum also deals with the discoveries that Alice Miller made.
Alice Miller readers have been discouraged from coming here. Alice Miller rejected primal therapy twelve years ago. The title of this forum is Primal Theory and Practice. Maybe you can't change the address, but you could change the title... Overcoming Hidden Traumas - or something like that.

Cesar Tort

Post by Cesar Tort »

If what ?Antonio? says is true in the link I posted above, changing the name of this forum would be a good idea.

I know Breggin received at least one of my letters since I sent it to him thru FedEx. FedEx told me that the Breggins received it. And his stupid editor Simon replied to many of my letters, always in hard-diamond denial that parents cause psychoses. His former editor, Cohen, also received my complaint but he stupidly sided Simon even when I pointed out to Cohen the fact that two scholarly books appeared in 2004 about the trauma model.

Daniel has told me that people in ICSPP, Breggin?s group, are in denial.

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Post by Dennis »

I'm not comparing human emotions to computers at all. Primal means fundamental, at the core, the source. Since the context of this forum is emotions, I assumed people would understand I was talking about the source of emotions, not DNA. Dealing with the source has a bigger impact, for the good or for the worse.
Genetic theorists will tell you the source code is DNA!
Yes, and Primal Theorists will tell you the source is primal pain or primal feeling.
Alice Miller rejected primal therapy twelve years ago.
True, and 6 years ago, she embraced it again, but not primal self-therapy
http://www.alice-miller.com/articles_en ... =44&grp=11

I asked people before what would be a good title for this forum but so far nothing better came out. Overcoming hidden traumas would be a good alternative. How about this one: Breaking Down Walls of Silence
I'm also working at a completely new design of the front page of this site so any ideas are welcome. I considered publishing stories here from parental abuse that are mentioned in the press, as was suggested earlier but it's too much to begin with and I doubt if people will continue reading that day after day.

Cesar, it's time for the new generation to step up.

Dennis

Cesar Tort

Post by Cesar Tort »

"Breaking Down Walls of Silence" is perfect!!

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