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Childhood trauma and its consequences
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 9:44 pm 
Dennis wrote:
What Cesar did to Phil, I can understand he gave up on forums. And Cesar turned 180 degrees around and built high walls to protect himself from his pain, and attacking me and Daniel without any direct reason […] And he said on his forum that he wants to kill 6 billion people. If that isn't (child) abuse, then what is? […] But the problem I got with Cesar was, that he stopped discussing his ideas and wasn't listening anymore.

I already told you that I panicked in my forum when a vandal posted more than 20 porno threads; I messed it up a bit when trying to prune my forum and after that I removed the entire Phil thread (along with the most private of your posts, as you requested).

Also, I told you that I have no longer internet services at home and that I am overwhelmed by work. Therefore, my absence in forums has nothing to do with “protect myself from pain”.

My comments about you and Dan in my forum, which is linked nowhere BTW, were answers to what your countryman Andreas asked me. Nothing more.

Oh yes: in the last pages of my 5th and last book I made positive remarks about both of you, and zero negative remarks. (I have only criticized you guys in the forums, not in the MS I intend to publish.)

As to “killing 6 billion people”, that inflammatory rhetoric is the subject-matter of my last book —impossible to explain in forums. However, I can send you the Spanish MS if you wish and run an English translator program.

D.R.B. wrote:
I was really quite shocked by Cesar's attitude and the insults he hurled at anyone and everyone. I have to admit I didn't read everything in the threads where he posted torrents of words, so I don't know what he did to Phil in particular. In fact I'm surprised you haven't removed some of his more inflamatory posts like "Europeans are still Neanderthals." It seemed to me Cesar was using your forum like a cuckoo's nest. I mentioned before that a few threads where he was very active are receiving a huge number of visitors, which makes me think he linked to them from other places on the 'net. […] Dennis: That's awful what Cesar did with his forum. […] he was quite insulting to Bookish (Kerry from the UK?) in "Bookish's betrayal"

Hi DRB. I would prefer that Dan, Dennis or whoever tells me directly that I insulted any of them. And no: I didn’t link Dennis' forum to other websites except Wikipedia (Bookish and wiki user Maunus linked it in a hotly controversial talk Wikipedia page). Re “Europeans still neandertals”, if you remember I also said “I am a Neandertal too” in Dan’s forum last year. It’s a con word for a non-fully Enlightened guy. Sorry if that rhetoric offended you (I thought you are American?).

To the newcomers in this forum:

You are absolutely right: bio-reductionism sponsored by Big Pharma is one of the biggest lies in contemporary society. That’s why I contributed with the following articles in Wikipedia:

Anti-psychiatry
Biopsychiatry controversy
Trauma model of mental disorders
Refrigerator mother
Psychohistory
Interpretation of Schizophrenia
Alice Miller
Theodore Lidz
Ross Institute for Psychological Trauma
Early infanticidal childrearing
The Gene Illusion (mainly in talk page)

Writing the “Biopsychiatry controversy” was a nightmare. I had to endure a nasty Arbitration Committee trial, as you can see in the archived talk page discussions of the wiki article:

Biological psychiatry.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 1:09 am 
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Cesar,
That you messed up your forum is not an excuse for exposing private communications. You admitted to me that you had zero computer skills, which is fair, and I helped you setting up a forum at the time, where you wanted a private, invisible forum for selected members only. If you had a problem, all you needed to do was to email me, and ask for help. Now months later I saw your private forum exposed to the public, without a single word of communication. I needed to write 4 emails or so to convince you to either delete them or make them private again. It took you 4 weeks to do so. I already expressed my dissatisfaction about that to you. But the public pages are already stored and available into eternity through the archives...

Cesar wrote:
Also, I told you that I have no longer internet services at home and that I am overwhelmed by work. Therefore, my absence in forums has nothing to do with “protect myself from pain”.


So your visualizations of yourself in a big castle or isolated prisons, accompanied by pictures of big castles, is not a metaphor for feeling alienated and alone? Isn't this the way philosophers live? Locked up with their own thoughts and language? And isn't an overload of work a great suppressor of certain feelings?

There are many bad things going on in this world, and we need to work together and not against each other. I already told you that I think your critical work on psychiatry is brilliant. When it comes to you criticizing me, there's a forum for that, where you can discuss matters directly with me.

Regarding the many hits certain threads received, I might have mentioned it in another forum or sites, or other people might have mentioned it. Those high hit threads contain some very good arguments, and people may feel to link them in their own discussions in other forums.

DRB wrote:
The main obstacle I see is that resistance against bio-psych is mainly via the internet. I think only a small proportion of the general public look for that kind of reading material online. As Dennis pointed out, print media journalists are under pressure not to antagonize big budget advertisers.


I once wrote a letter to the editor in a large Swedish newspaper on a highly biased article about a kid diagnosed with ADHD. It was published, with a response of the journalist, who wrote such stupid things, which resulted in another letter of mine, which was also printed. A few weeks after that, the same paper published another kind of article on ADHD, showing much more of the other side, even quoting Peter Breggin (which gets seldom mentioned in the big press). I like to think that I influenced that somehow. This is what people need to do more, when you read something wrong in your paper. These letters are mentioned on my own website (also in Swedish, Karin).

When it comes to internet as a source of correct information, it does have an effect on people. I've done a lot of research on aspartame, the artificial sweetener, which wasn't picked up by the press (except the Dutch independent press). But despite the massive attempts to convince the average consumer of the absolute safety of aspartame, more and more people actively avoid it, because of the way it spread on the internet. And even more food companies are starting to ban it from their products. Because if your facts and arguments are honest and accurate, people do listen and talk about it to others. But it takes huge amounts of time.

Maybe there's a shortage of psychiatrists because the regular physicians have taken over their roles. My own mother got from her doctor prozac several years ago (forget about the abusive husband, forget about the abusive childhood, here's a pill). Unfortunately the prozac reacted with another pill she had and almost died. The (Belgian) doctor told her she was sorry to have made that mistake and that was it. Regular doctors have become psychiatrists and psychologists, while I thought they weren't allowed to make psychiatric diagnosis. Another Belgian doctor admitted in an interview once that he knew it was wrong to give his patients anti-depressives and that the cause was the abuse they suffered but that there was no time to talk about that with them. That the patients demanded the pills.

Karin, yes people are reading without writing. Just look at the registered visitors, most haven't written. Some people have admitted that they don't want to engage in endless discussions. I personally think that a discussion can never be endless, and maybe there's a fear of discussing personal matters. How many kids were free to discuss openly and free at home? How many parents told their kids: No more 'but', my word is final, when a child wanted to express his opinion? Or do people value their own opinion? Do they think it's worth to express it?

Steve, a former friend of mine said I was authoritarian when I expressed my opinion on mind-altering 'medication'. Her daughter had attempted to commit suicide and experienced a break-down afterwards. They put her on pills, because that was her wish. She said if I had stopped her for doing so or disadvised of doing so, I was authoritarian, not taking her feelings and wishes in account. So it's a tricky field of 'advising' people when it comes to the pharmaceutical 'help'. This mother read all the Alice Miller books ands many others. Apparently certain feelings are accepted to feel, such as grieve and loss, but feelings of anger, destruction, hatred, are being shielded.

I've read the David Healy article. In most European countries it's forbidden to advertise prescribed drugs, so we are not as exposed to the hype as the Americans. Marketing diseases that don't exist, is another big topic and the pharmaceutical industry has and is going really too far with it. Also in Sweden and the rest of Europe. The more I read about it, the more I get disgusted.

Lots of off-topic views again, but that's how it often goes because so many things are connected.

Dennis


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 6:49 am 
Cesar wrote:
...if you remember I also said "I am a Neandertal too" in Dan's forum last year.

No, I don't remember, because I wasn't a regular visitor. It's not relevant anyway, because what matters is the impression new arrivals get on this forum.
Cesar wrote:
Sorry if that rhetoric offended you (I thought you are American?).

Sounds like you're saying it should be acceptable to direct insulting rhetoric towards all the inhabitants of another contintent. There's a word for that -- xenophobia.

Dennis wrote:
A few weeks after that, the same paper published another kind of article on ADHD...

I'm impressed, because writing to newspapers is more of a challenge and a commitment than posting an opinion on a forum or blog. It's many years since I bought a newspaper, actually. I prefer online sources.
Dennis wrote:
When it comes to internet as a source of correct information, it does have an effect on people.

I hope so. Maybe as time goes by, more and more newspaper readers will realize that a wider range of opinions and facts can be found on the 'net.
Dennis wrote:
Maybe there's a shortage of psychiatrists because the regular physicians have taken over their roles.

More likely they've taken over their roles because of there's a shortage of medical graduates choosing to train as psychiatrists. Just one Google search, a couple of months ago, showed lots of discussion about it on medical websites. But the result of the trend is to shift the role to doctors who are less committed to psychiatric dogma. They prescribe the drugs because they have nothing else to offer, as the Belgian doctor admitted in that interview. I think there is more skepticism among regular physicians because I've seen plenty of dissenting commentary on the network of medical blogs. I can believe that many patients demand pills because drugs help to keep the lid on repression and denial. Aldous Huxley predicted it would happen in Brave New World Revisited (published in 1958).


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 7:27 am 
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Dennis
It's all the same topic. I'm coming here directly from having looked at the second Powerpoint presentation of Anna Jenning's life. Her institutionalized years through to her suicide. Not going to be able to express myself well. One huge bright side is that her mother successfully has told the story. Maybe it's bright too that I'm about beside myself, extremely angry and sad and happy all at the same time. It makes me sick that this has gone on in the country I live in during my lifetime. Child abuse is not just the reason Anna herself was broken, it's the reason the whole system is so absolutely incredibly stupid. It's like a horror movie that you can't go home from because it's everywhere, all the time. Nothing at all like what they told us to expect from life as kids. I guess I'll be okay. Nice to have the courage of others to admire.

http://www.annafoundation.org/index.html

karin, Clare
Hi, thanks for saying hello. I wonder if the media doesn't just feel obligated by a sense of "professional courtesy" to go with the prevailing wind of whatever the majority of experts in psychology or whatever other "specialized" field tell them to say. My sense, though, of what even the chemists and researchers of the pharmaceutical companies "believe" is that it's a half an inch deep even if it is a mile wide. Given the obvious passion and outrage of people who know that the "world's not flat" and are not willing to put up with further spreading of that misconception, well it sure makes ME feel better. I hope I can punch the biggest hole I can in that wall myself, but everybody's got to sleep now and then, take care of themselves, relax sometimes. More to the point, unless I see something outrageous being repeated by the local paper I expect to mostly ignore media stuff and just keep spreading around "Plain Talk" booklets, and whenever I can, tell people what I think face to face. Can't deny that the Internet has its beneficial aspects, but it's also got it's limits. I want people to see it in my eyes and hear it in my voice that I'm angry and that I'm dead serious. There's no excuse anymore. I think really everybody's known that all along.

Listen, gotta go, thanks again. Steve


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:44 pm 
Dennis wrote:
It took you 4 weeks to do so.

Hi Dennis: I told you thru emails that I only reviewed my mails on Sundays or forthnightly when I was writing my book. That’s why I was slow to reply. Had I internet services at home I’d have done the job in one day. BTW, Phil never complained about what happened in my forum; and I always was very civil with him.
Dennis wrote:
I saw your private forum exposed to the public, without a single word of communication

I also told you that I wanted to communicate with my sisters. That’s why I opened my forum. They’re so newbies that they couldn’t even register. I opened it so that they could post without logging in.
Dennis wrote:
So your visualizations of yourself in a big castle or isolated prisons, accompanied by pictures of big castles, is not a metaphor for feeling alienated and alone?

You fail to understand my black sense of humor. Again, I was merely responding to your countryman Andreas’ wish of seclusion. And I don’t think it’s proper to bring here discussions from an unlinked, closed forum like my own one.
Dennis wrote:
When it comes to you criticizing me, there's a forum for that, where you can discuss matters directly with me.

Andreas and you are the only ones in my membership list, so you can discuss thorny issues there. After the Loftus thread affair I just didn’t think it wise to add more fire into your forum.

D.R.B. wrote:
Sounds like you're saying it should be acceptable to direct insulting rhetoric towards all the inhabitants of another contintent. There's a word for that -- xenophobia.

The problem with a pitch-black sense of humor such as mine is that very few people can see through it. Actually, Europeans, especially the Nordic people, represent the highest psychoclass in the world from my viewpoint. Some of them are psychogenically superior compared to some Americans, Canadians and Australians since they don’t give much psychiatric drugs to their children, as North Americans do. I better change the “Neandertal” title in that thread right now to avoid further misunderstanding. The new title is: Europeans still have to reach the "helping mode" (take a look at my graphic Avatar image above and see the context in my web page, linked below).

P.S. I have also replaced the title thread of "Bookish betrayal" for simply Bookish.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 11:41 am 
Hi all,

Some loud thinking triggered by the last postings here:

Internet has meant a lot to me. In fact I bought my first computer only five years ago and knew almost nothing about this world before (of different reasons). Thanks to this (a computer and slowly learning about computers and Internet) I found out that Miller has a website, that she has written books after “Paths of Life” (“Life-paths”) and have found information about this and that and come in contact with people. Which has made me feel less alone and strengthened feelings I have had… But a lot of phenomena have challenged and made me feel bad too, feeling bad over mankind. Feeling horror and made me wonder why it is as it is in this world, how people can resonate as they do etc.

So even if just a few read things it can mean things, maybe a lot in the end. And even encourage people to raise their voices more and more. Even in real life, face to face, as Steve writes about, which probably is even better than just writing about these things? However writing about them is better than nothing, I think. It is a start at least, and maybe you need to put things in print first for yourself and for a small group, for few readers. And maybe more people are reading without you knowing it?

Yes, I think it is as Dennis writes: “Because if your facts and arguments are honest and accurate, people do listen and talk about it to others. But it takes huge amounts of time.”

Yes, it takes a huge amount of time!?

And yes, there’s a shortage of psychiatrists here in Sweden too! Recently it has been articles here in the newspapers about this. There are too few interested in psychiatry among physician students. Why one can wonder of course.

But that’s not only bad? More physicians should be interested in these things. The roots for illnesses… As for instance the Norwegian General Practitioner Anna Luise Kirkengen. There is a physician Linn Getz located on Iceland that is inspired by Kirkengen. And also see the readers’ letter on Millers web about the doctor Gwenda Delany and Judith Burchardt in UK. http://www.alice-miller.com/readersmail ... 1&grp=0807 There are probably more such persons I don’t know of.

New, fresh eyes outside psychiatry is needed??

Dennis, you wrote: “yes people are reading without writing. Just look at the registered visitors, most haven't written. Some people have admitted that they don't want to engage in endless discussions. I personally think that a discussion can never be endless, and maybe there's a fear of discussing personal matters. How many kids were free to discuss openly and free at home? How many parents told their kids: No more 'but', my word is final, when a child wanted to express his opinion? Or do people value their own opinion? Do they think it's worth to express it?”

No, constructive discussions can never be endless? And, yes, there can be a fear to discuss personal matters, of understandable reasons. In raising ones voice. Can be very scary?? And, yes, many think they don’t have anything to contribute with!? They don’t value their own opinions, doubt it’s worth to express what they think and feel?

Dennis: “Steve, a former friend of mine said I was authoritarian when I expressed my opinion on mind-altering 'medication'. Her daughter had attempted to commit suicide and experienced a break-down afterwards. They put her on pills, because that was her wish. She said if I had stopped her for doing so or disadvised of doing so, I was authoritarian, not taking her feelings and wishes in account. So it's a tricky field of 'advising' people when it comes to the pharmaceutical 'help'. This mother read all the Alice Miller books ands many others. Apparently certain feelings are accepted to feel, such as grieve and loss, but feelings of anger, destruction, hatred, are being shielded.”

Yes, this is tricky. But I think you did right to react, to express your opinion, and that you was authoritarian was their interpretation. And despite people have read Miller they are still caught in poisonous pedagogy. Many of us are unfortunately (I am probably too sad to say, it's not easy to shake off, in ones reactions etc.). But if one is aware of it at lleast, and works on it… This is painful.

And advertisement for drugs here in Sweden: it has come more and more? Or people read at the net about medicine and ask doctors for things they have read about on the net? Just a feeling I have. And it’s easier to take a pill than doing a tough work… We want quick fixes, maybe more than ever in this world, where you shall be so strong, capable, clever etc. And why is today’s world like that? From where does it come? From the blue? What are the roots? What sort of ideas have we bee brought up with? Despite all Miller for instance has learned us!!?

And that Miller isn’t mentioned doesn’t mean we shall skip her I think! Rather the contrary; remind people about her and what she has written! But of course also inform about all persons that has been added in putting the light on child abuse and how children are treated ad the effects of this. And Freud’s ideas have influenced us so much. In fact at the book store here they suddenly had a lot of books about Freud and his work. So his ideas can come back as an against-reaction a sort of renaissance. Is he really so outdated? His ideas about drives etc. But maybe in other cloths?

But a lot of doubtful, even damaging concepts have popped up!! A bit scary is this!? People are promised gold and green woods (guld och gröna skogar as we say), and more or less desperate people catches straws like these?

And I am not at all very sure of myself, on the contrary…

It’s a lot at work now before Christmas (hiding behind a heavy workload?). But behind a lot of other things I do, and write, I still have my thoughts, wonders, am thinking…

Karin


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 2:42 pm 
Karin wrote:
And that Miller isn't mentioned doesn't mean we shall skip her I think! Rather the contrary; remind people about her and what she has written! But of course also inform about all persons that has been added in putting the light on child abuse and how children are treated ad the effects of this.

I wonder if you are reacting to a remark I made to Steve:
Quote:
If you plan to spread the word, Steve, I would say it's important to avoid giving the impression that all Miller's books can match up to it. For example, her critiques of psychoanalysis are pretty much a non-issue in today's world.

I should have spent a little more time explaining what I meant. I'll do that now. You mentioned "Paths of Life" in your reply. In Miller's readers' mail some people have said they were influenced by it, but on other sites many more people have said they found it disappointing after her earlier books. Maybe if it's the first time a reader encounters Miller's writings it makes a different impression. On the PPP message board (that closed down in 2006) it was pointed out that The Body Never Lies contains micro-biographies of literary figures from history who are unfamiliar to young adults of today. The posts by Dennis about Teri Hatcher, and from Steve about Sinead O'Connor, and my reply about Mariette Hartley, show that she could have found examples that are familiar in our present cultural climate.
Karin wrote:
And Freud's ideas have influenced us so much. In fact at the book store here they suddenly had a lot of books about Freud and his work. So his ideas can come back as an against-reaction a sort of renaissance. Is he really so outdated? His ideas about drives etc. But maybe in other cloths?

There will always be authors who try to keep alive old ideas. I don't know if the situation is different in Sweden, but I haven't seen recent reviews or articles promoting Freud's ideas in the English-language mass media. What is certain is that academic psychologists and mainstream psychiatrists don't promote it. The first edition of the American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual, published in 1952, used psychoanalytic categories. The second edition threw them out and introduced new categories. Alice Miller's Thou Shalt Not Be Aware (1981) is mainly a critique of Psychoanalysis published at a time when many influential psychiatrists still supported it.

Personally, I hesitate to say to people: "You will come to new insights about your life if you read this book by Alice Miller, and this one, and this one, and this one, and this one, and this one. I made that mistake once, and my friend turned round said "You're telling me to go away and read a whole bunch of books! You sound like a schoolteacher. Don't you care about what I've just told you!" So now I would just recommend one -- from a short list of four.
Karin wrote:
Even in real life, face to face, as Steve writes about, which probably is even better than just writing about these things. However writing about them is better than nothing, I think. It is a start at least, and maybe you need to put things in print first for yourself and for a small group, for few readers. And maybe more people are reading without you knowing it?

I have to admit I became discouraged after tackling people face to face, in real life. Too many times I succeeded only in triggering defensive reactions -- like the examples Dennis has given in various replies on the forum. I haven't written to newspapers either. These days I keep my opinions for forums and blogs where the issues are being discussed. But I agree with you that writing about them online is a start at least. Better than "better than nothing" because those opinions remain for future readers who are looking for signs that others have seen through the widespread denial about the harm parents can inflict on children.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 9:02 pm 
D.RB.: You mentioned "Paths of Life" in your reply. In Miller's readers' mail some people have said they were influenced by it, but on other sites many more people have said they found it disappointing after her earlier books. Maybe if it's the first time a reader encounters Miller's writings it makes a different impression.

Karin: Yes, it can possibly be so, it probably is so!

D.R.B.: On the PPP message board (that closed down in 2006) it was pointed out that The Body Never Lies contains micro-biographies of literary figures from history who are unfamiliar to young adults of today. The posts by Dennis about Teri Hatcher, and from Steve about Sinead O'Connor, and my reply about Mariette Hartley, show that she could have found examples that are familiar in our present cultural climate.

Karin: Yes, the artists she mentions (but that’s in “The Body Never Lies”?) are probably not so familiar to people in general. Many not so familiar to me either, but to me it doesn’t matter so much… But maybe I am special there?? And I like her first books best, the ones she published before 1990 or somewhere there. And I quote from them still. When I write.

D.R.B.: Personally, I hesitate to say to people: "You will come to new insights about your life if you read this book by Alice Miller, and this one, and this one, and this one, and this one, and this one. I made that mistake once, and my friend turned round said "You're telling me to go away and read a whole bunch of books! You sound like a schoolteacher. Don't you care about what I've just told you!" So now I would just recommend one -- from a short list of four.

Karin: No, I wouldn’t say that either to people I think… But I usually not recommend books to others, especially not in these matters, maybe only novels, autobiographies and such things… Or tell others I have read this and that and found it interesting (though nothing about the things I refer to or quote from in my blog). I’m very careful with whom I talk about those things with. Because I have also met such reactions that I am very hesitant about his.

My second therapy with a male psycho-therapist an psychiatrist contributes to this, a psycho-dynamic therapy. With a therapist that said to me that Freud had done a lot of good things when I questioned him and his ideas. And I don’t think he has changed… He and all colleagues to him probably don’t shake these influences off so easily! So brain-washed by them!? Even if people don’t mention Freud by name, so…

D.R.B.: I have to admit I became discouraged after tackling people face to face, in real life. Too many times I succeeded only in triggering defensive reactions -- like the examples Dennis has given in various replies on the forum. I haven't written to newspapers either.

Karin: I don’t do that either. I keep these things or myself mostly, because I don’t want to et them destroyed by others… I am usually not the one that writes to papers either, except for some e-mails to our two biggest newspapers here about the ACE-study and to a TV-program “Ask the Doctor” also about the ACE-study and about physician Anna-Luise Kirkengen (living in out neighbour country) about her findings and writings. With no success so far though.

And I have written to a female leader writer almost three years ago (Hanne Kjöller at a paper called DN) with discouraging results, she replied in a fairly bad way I think. But it seems I am not the only one reacting on hr and what she writes. I got upset over things she wrote and expressed.

But different persons can contribute in different ways? Dennis is a person that dare to confront media? We are other sorts of people? But I don’t know; with time I can come to be a person also daring to write more officially??

D.R.B.: These days I keep my opinions for forums and blogs where the issues are being discussed. But I agree with you that writing about them online is a start at least. Better than "better than nothing" because those opinions remain for future readers who are looking for signs that others have seen through the widespread denial about the harm parents can inflict on children.

Karin: What a nice thought: that those opinions remain for future readers looking for signs that others have seen through!! Think if I had had those opportunities many, many eras ago! Then I would maybe have quitted the bad therapies I was in!??

But I think Miller has to be mentioned in these circumstances, but together with others. And I still think she is the most radical!!

And I have a feeling that mentioning you have read Miller among psychiatrists, psychologists and such isn’t quite comme-il-faut!! You just don’t do that if you want to remain reliable!!?? Even if perhaps some or many actually have read her and got influenced, and influenced very much.

But I don’t know if we have quitted the topic now completely??

We have to use different ways/paths to spread this message, and probably have to correct the ways we use?

But I believe in seeing things in a perspective that history gives too. And things seem to come back.

And after I had posted my previous posting I got an mail from a friend in Norway about how persistent writing about the topic marginalised people (in psychiatry, victim of abuse in childhood etc.) gives positive response and hat people actually notices it and appreciates it!!! This was fairly encouraging I think! I got glad reading it.

I have blogged about it. Though in Swedish and Norwegian. http://reflektionerochspeglingar.blogsp ... eller.html

Warmly
Karin


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 11:02 pm 
Karin, I'm still not sure if you understand that I do recommend Alice Miller books, but from a list of four. The one I would recommend first would depend on what I know about the person I'm talking to. If I know very little about their childhood (maybe because they are in denial about it themselves) I would recommend Breaking Down the Wall of Silence. Only if they came back to me with a favorable response would I recommend the next on my list. In another situation I might recommend a different one first.

People who already know and like Alice Miller's writing wouldn't need a recommendation. Skeptical people, on the other hand, are often looking for excuses to throw her books away.

Karin wrote:
My second therapy with a male psycho-therapist an psychiatrist contributes to this, a psycho-dynamic therapy. With a therapist that said to me that Freud had done a lot of good things when I questioned him and his ideas. And I don't think he has changed.

I think all schools of psychotherapy still have followers today -- primal, cognitive, psycho-dynamic, and more recently, E.I. skills training. Maybe it's for that reason journalists take the 'safe' path and publicise the ideas of university psychologists and bio-psychiatrists.

Karin wrote:
And I have a feeling that mentioning you have read Miller among psychiatrists, psychologists and such isn't quite comme-il-faut!! You just don't do that if you want to remain reliable! Even if perhaps some or many actually have read her and got influenced, and influenced very much.

Yes, that was true before bio-psych gained ascendancy, and even more so now. In English, we say "It's not the done thing" to mean the same as the phrase "comme-il-faut".

Karin wrote:
And after I had posted my previous posting I got an mail from a friend in Norway about how persistent writing about the topic ... ... gives positive response and that people actually notices it and appreciates it!!! This was fairly encouraging I think! I got glad reading it.

Yes, it's important to persist, because the more it is discussed the more it will come to the attention of those who never considered these things before.

Best wishes,
D.R.B.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 1:31 pm 
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Cesar wrote:
Phil never complained about what happened in my forum; and I always was very civil with him.


Did you have contact with Phil after you made the forum public? Because he ended his contributions in your forum before that. I had informed him about the new situation but haven't heard or seen Phil since.

Cesar wrote:
And I don’t think it’s proper to bring here discussions from an unlinked, closed forum like my own one.


You forum is not closed, but open for anyone to read. Links are not necessary when there are search engines. I was also referring to your wish of seclusion on this forum. Just wondering, can I ask you personal questions here on the forum, or do you prefer to keep that separate from your research?

I have no problems with fires and hot issues. It's unavoidable to prevent our emotions getting stirred up when we talk about really important issues that reach into the very core of being human.

Steve, I knew the annafoundation.org from before but never looked at the Powerpoint presentation. It's a very sad story indeed. And to think that there are many more like Anna. The victim being punished over and over again... But the whole history brings me also more questions than it answers. How was the family situation? Why was her older sister very ill as well? They should show this in every school.

DRB, it goes two ways, on one side there is the person who wants to put the lock on seeping painful feelings and memories, on the other side there is the pharmaceutical industry who promises the disappearing of those feelings and memories, so people can join the carousel of happiness again. It's denial, the chemical way. But the (side) effects inflict often more harm than they bargained for.

DRB wrote:
Personally, I hesitate to say to people: "You will come to new insights about your life if you read this book by Alice Miller, and this one, and this one, and this one, and this one, and this one. I made that mistake once, and my friend turned round said "You're telling me to go away and read a whole bunch of books! You sound like a schoolteacher. Don't you care about what I've just told you!" So now I would just recommend one -- from a short list of four.


Very good point. I used to recommend books as well but people seldom read any. Maybe it is connected to the teacher who always forced you to read those books that you didn't want to read. But books are very powerful, because you're reading someone else's words with your own thoughts and they become more personal. My father always forbid me to read books while I also knew a girl whose father forced her to read one book a week. No doubt both extremes influence a life-long attitude towards books.

Karin wrote:
I think you did right to react, to express your opinion, and that you was authoritarian was their interpretation. And despite people have read Miller they are still caught in poisonous pedagogy. Many of us are unfortunately (I am probably too sad to say, it's not easy to shake off, in ones reactions etc.). But if one is aware of it at least, and works on it… This is painful.


This woman terminated the 12-year friendship immediately with me so further explanations from me were not welcomed, even though this woman always insisted honesty and openness. In my experience, people who claim to want openness are often very scared of it. What I learned was a new dimension in denial (I don't know how many layers and dimensions denial has, because I keep finding new ones)

By the way, if you want to quote someone, you can mark the text and hit the quote button in your reply.
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Dennis


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 5:50 pm 
Yes, Dennis: you can ask personal questions here (except about the issues that I wrote in my 5-volume Hojas susurrantes: that's a subject for my closed forum).

Phil was never upset in my forum. He just quit.


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 Post subject: Re: Sinead or ?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 9:13 am 
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Folks,
When I wrote about wanting to deal "face-to-face" I meant more than anything just standing up in person for what's right, and doing it at the right time. People don't read things unless they think they're already interested; I don't want to push books. To me the bottom line of all of Miller's books put together is simple: hurting children is the source of more crap than has even begun to be counted. It's just a guess on my part, but I think I can fix my own stuff best and fastest--and maybe ONLY--with direct personal confrontation. Just like it would be basically easy, on one hand, ego-wise, to record myself playing guitar and post it to You Tube. What I've promised myself (and have yet to do), on the other hand, but what for me is hundreds of times more intimidating, is getting back on a real stage (after ~25 years off) performing the same thing for as few as a handful in a coffeeshop.

No sooner than I finished saying here whatever I said about not planning to write to newspapers unless something idiotic showed up, I saw a letter to the editor complaining that what's wrong with the world today is that parents just aren't beating their kids enough. No kidding. Saw it the next morning. So, much as I want to stay low-key, I had to respond not just with text but publicly in a community where many people know who I am but have never heard me sing that song. The main PROBLEM is, unlike direct face-to-face, is that the WAIT for response and feedback (ever any ever even comes at all) is excruciating. There's no body language to cue from, no immediate boos or applause; no clues at all. Besides still having to wonder if I'm fooling myself--that is: how courageous I'd be or not be when facing that same person in real time--it's still too much like waiting for a school test paper to be graded and handed back, for instance. I don't like waiting for other shoes to drop. I don't mind challenges, but the stress involved in long waits wears me out, I don't find anything healing about it. Direct involvement may be riskier in the short run, but over time it's sure simpler.

Dennis
The thing about Anna Jenning's experience is that it's universal here. It's the way the whole system "thinks" and behaves, top to bottom with only rare exceptions (and hooray for them!) It's not just that there are others like her, it's that the disrespect is systemic. Figure out what works far as keeping kids from being traumatized in the first place--all sides of the equation balance, the rest of the problems evaporate.

Steve


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 Post subject: Re: Sinead or ?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 9:39 pm 
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I think any form of expression is good and every person can find their way of doing it the best way they think fit. Expression usually leads to more expression. The example of the letter in that paper where someone feels that beating more kids leads to a better world, is turning the world around. It's the old argument that adults use that were beaten themselves as a child and idealized it. As if things were better in the past. Have they forgotten about World War II?

Steve, I've mentioned it before, but since you're new here, there's a site that has a 'support' forum for abused children. Beating kids was being promoted as a good thing by the moderators there. Here's the link to the thread, which has more than 17000 views, even though they had locked it pretty fast. This is how deep denial can go. There are many forums online that promote hatred and beatings of children, but to see it on a support forum for abused children, was upsetting. You'll see that I and a few others here have posted in that thread... Eventually I was asked by the administrator to leave because I was choosing sides with abused children and not with the adults. And watch all the bipolar ads flashing by on the sides...

As everyone can see, our Forum has been updated and has a Chat function on top of the screen. Registered users can see if there are people online and can start chatting. Private chat is also possible, when you type /join in the message box and click on a name (when that person is online) to invite him/ her.

Dennis

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Everything I write here is my opinion, not absolute truths but I don't want to start every sentence with in my opinion...


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 Post subject: Re: Sinead or ?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2007 1:04 pm 
Dennis wrote:
As if things were better in the past. Have they forgotten about World War II?

Unfortunately, yes they have. The only people alive today who have personal memories of World War II are long past retirement age. When I was a very small boy I can remember American and British war movies on TV (some in Black 'n' White!) which glorified the heroism of allied soldiers. In those days older people sometimes talked about how life was during the war. Those same people, now they're old, seldom talk about it. Young parents may not even have seen gung-ho war movies on TV.

That's why "For Your Own Good" in on my Alice Miller list. It's less threatening to read about bad things which happened in a bygone era. Only people who have an open mind will notice similarities to what's happening in today's world. Strange as it may seem, FYG is like a 'gentle' introduction to the idea of 'poisonous pedagogy', because the Hitler period and before is like a mythical era in a novel. That's why I prefer "Breaking Down the Wall of Silence." At least Nicolae Ceausescu is within living memory. Some young adults may actually be acquainted with a Romanian orphan who was adopted by an American family. Saddam Hussein is probably another example Americans would choose, although there's an example closer to home:

http://onlinejournal.com/artman/publish ... 1185.shtml

http://www.serendipity.li/wot/conover01.htm


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 Post subject: Re: Sinead or ?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 6:13 am 
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Dennis,
I looked at the first two pages of the Psych Forums thread. Didn't find anything disrespectful about your tone toward Angel. Didn't see it, didn't sense it. Little bleary right now, but I don't think anything blatant on your part would have gotten past. Discouraging that a site administrator would pile on. Would expect that someone in that position would understand at least that Angel was only imagining "attack", that feelings are not necessarily the same as reality, that "siding" with her was doing everyone including Angel a disservice. Please excuse if this sounds like a lecture, but it's just what I'm thinking, a guess of what happened: Muzafer Sherif--Formation of social norms. Sounded like at least most of those people had developed relationships. If so, respectful or not, you broke the rules, were told it's too late to be that far off "center", please conform or leave. I'm sure there are other ways of analyzing it. But "support sites" of that sort become odd creatures, from a social standpoint (maybe all forums, I don't know). Of the few I'm familiar with, I've not seen one whose bottom line, agreed upon by all, was "trust the professionals, they're here to help you, here's a hug and don't forget to take those meds!" Angel just wasn't ready to hear that what you were talking about was the reason she herself had needed to look for support in the first place. Just my guess.. I think sometimes just having suggesting something, as you did, is enough to start something growing. I hope so. I tried inserting basically the same thoughts you did at three places this year. The vocal members, at least, wouldn't have it.

My letter to the local paper condemning corporal punishment wasn't printed today. I'll have to stave off fantasies now that the editors are saving it for Christmas day because "it's that good." Can't imagine which smiley over there is appropriate... here: :shock: Won't mention it again even if published unless something noteworthy comes. Steve

Oh! I burned the guitar today my mother broke over my head when I was fifteen! No kidding. I glued it back together, used it for several years and have kept it all this time, despite having gotten two others since then. (It was a cheapy anyway, with a bent neck.) I actually cooked dinner over it.


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