wallsofsilence.com

Childhood trauma and its consequences
It is currently Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:29 am

All times are UTC + 1 hour [ DST ]




Forum locked This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 104 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Sinead or ?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 5:04 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 2:06 am
Posts: 486
Location: Sweden
I've finally translated the interview with Sinéad O'Connor from September 1991. I've been looking for the original for months on the net, but it's no where to be found. This is still one of the best interviews I've read of any artist. I recognized a lot of myself in her views back then and as she recommended two authors, John Bradshaw and Alice Miller, I went to the library afterwards and came back with Miller's Breaking Down the Walls of Silence. The first thing that went through my mind when I had read it, was that Sinéad didn't get everything. She probably had only read Miller's first books. You'll see that there's still quite some denial and idealization in her views, but between all that, there are powerful statements on child abuse. Here you can read the interview.

Dennis

P.S. Clare, have you read Alice Miller's books Banished Knowledge and Breaking Down the Walls of Silence?

_________________
Everything I write here is my opinion, not absolute truths but I don't want to start every sentence with in my opinion...


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Sinead or ?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 4:23 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2007 6:20 pm
Posts: 106
Location: USA
Clare,
I saw on drummer Mickey Hart's wikipedia page that he's involved with "The Institute for Music and Neurologic Function", and there are links. So if it makes sense for you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mickey_Hart

Karin,
Thanks for having a look at it, and for saying thanks. A little irony, being that this is a Sinéad thread--but I promise it's 100% accidental: four years ago at this time I was falling badly in love with a "mentally ill" "bald chick". "Badly" is understating it, and "bald" had nothing to do with anything. Bald was the way it happened to be whether I liked it or not (I'd have to say that I guess it was 'okay'). Nothing about love has anything at all to do with "choice", seems to me. We popped like a balloon not six months later, though, and still hurts like a B**** more often than I'd like. One of the last things she said to me was "All about you, still." I won't go into any of this in any detail here or anywhere else, but this lady had a 'parental' side without doubt. I knew when she said it that she had intended to make me feel bad--I'd say now that she'd gone to the same kind of 'repetition compulsion' I suppose most of us (all of us) have to deal with, somehow--well maybe I should let it go at that. You were very kind to say that I had "shared". Thank you.

I was taught that the piano is considered a "percussion" instrument. boom bang boom.

Dennis,
That translation had to have been a ton of work. I'm glad to have read it. Truth still darkened by the BS of the ages, I suppose. But how great that she stood up and said something huh? Awkward and only half-right as she may have been--wow! I really think it's going to get better out there. I don't think going back is even possible. So. Guess I'm done. And thanks for kind things said !

Steve


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Sinead or ?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 5:20 pm 
Steve,
I have just returned from a walk. Now the snow seem to come! Tomorrow I start work again. I needed a break now it feels. To digest a lot. I need to reread things I think, here and there. When I do I see things I didn't see before; Aha, it stood LIKE THIS!! I am very ambitious, too much probably. Working full time, but nevertheless trying to write, read, be updated about everything...
And to be honest, I don't know much about Sinéad, to be really honest I know nothing. But googling on her I understand she is an Irish singer? And has cooperated with Peter Gabriel?
In this work you need to "rest"your ears! At least it seems as many of us need to. I appreciate when it is quiet at home! So by the years I have come to listen less and less to music. A bit sad. And there are other reasons to this too; I have been occupied with other things. Processing other things.
And when it comes to music, I saw a program in the Swedish TV now during the holidays, where a guest presents his favorite music-videos and a video they liked ones, but which is very shamy now. The guest now was a man round 33 years. I react strongly against something concerning what music seem to be for (some) people, a snobbishness I don't like and feel very uncomfortable with. For me music is something entirely different (and maybe others thinks my view is snobbish!?). And sometimes I wonder if I have chosen the wrong work (What does this have to do with Sinéad? :wink: ).
I have started to read Dennis translation of the interview with Sinéad, it was tough.
It struck me when I the other day read the first contribution in this topic/thread that it seems as for many they some point retreat to Denial after having read Miller. Is it at a point when the truth is starting to surface? People need to put up a thick Wall of Denial? And that's what we see in society in whole: Miller and her ideas are a bit outdated now? When I realized that she had written new books after "Paths of Life"and had a web-site soon only 3 years ago I got very glad! I can't be the only one reacting like that? Or does all have access to the net, and knows she is still active? (But it is sad with the experiences Dennis and I have with her for instance...).
The psychiatrist (??) Judith Herman has written "Trauma and Recovery" and she writes about this phenomena actually: that the issue/topic "trauma" has come and gone!!! Now I am turning long winded again! Phew!
Yes, actually I thought about that too; that piano is said to be a percussion-instrument! :) Hmmm, maybe why I have chosen it?? To get things out?
Sad with your "loves"...
Warmly
Karin
PS. Now a cup of tea after my walk (with poles; we are so strange here :) ).


Report this post
Top
  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Sinead or ?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:07 am 
Thinking further. Fame and attention you get if you become known or famous doesn’t fill the void, doesn’t fill the hole. And you can’t resolve these things symbolically, through art of different kinds for instance, neither with intelligence or the intellect. Maybe that’s what Sinéad O’Connor is an example for?

She mentioned AA-movement in the interview. Isn’t that method quite manipulative?

And I think many of us thought back then that psycho-dynamic (Freud-inspired?) etc. could help us!? So many tried it? And thought we should get the help Miller wrote about; that the professionals believed in what Miller wrote? And sought such help? And got confused to different degrees by this help? And got harmed to different degrees? And landed in dead ends of different depth? This is so sad. So to explore different methods is necessary. As Dennis has initiated in Therapy Wiki part. Therapies (ad therapists!?) that seems promising at first, but where there is subtle and obvious abuse, exploring the damaging elements in them. But I think I know too little about these things!?

And back to famous people and the more in Denial they are. Maybe they realize sooner or less that fame won’t resolve anything!? And are confronted in some cases with an enormous loneliness? In the worse cases a loneliness they can’t handle? And many artists (musicians too) uses drugs…

Some gets confronted with alienation they can’t handle? Which has a reason I think; they have had more to suppress? Or have had less help to process things. I also have a feeling that creative people earlier was drawn to Freud's ideas, which inspired them to discussions in all endlessness. Making them feel very important and intelligent!? And these sorts of discussions can be very fun!? But they alienate one more and more from from the truth? You get lost there somewhere in all ideas...

I had Käbi Laretei as piano-teacher, she was married to Ingmar Bergman for ten years and admired him enormously! She made me interested of intellectual things I think, made me "awake" in that sense? Since then I have read Bergman's books (and Käbi's too, she is an excellent writer despite she is born in Estonia), and later books by Erland Josephson, the Swedish actor... They are aware i many senses, but there is something... Bergman never entered a therapy-room, I think he was afraid of losing his creativity by this. And was probably also afraid of the truth (maybe unconsciously). Erland Josephson had a relative (painter) that got crazy... But they got influenced by Feudian ideas, as intellectuals did then?? Oidipus-complex, death-wish, demons (or "dämoner") and all that... All this about artists (a certain kind??).

And expressing oneself through music can’t that just be abreacting things? Feels good for the moment? But doesn’t resolve anything.

In music you express all kinds of feelings, not just the good, beautiful feelings, but also ugly, and fury, rage etc. But I think you can do that less neurotically.

And by the way, playing organ, church-organ not least, means you can fill a whole, big room with music. You then take space, and can even silence other people, make your voice heard above all and everyone so to say!!! Yes, that sort of abreaction can feel very good! It’s a fantastic thing to sit there on an organ-loft and fill a whole room with music! Especially if you are a small human being!

Karin


Report this post
Top
  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Rebels of all kinds.
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:31 am 
PPS. There have been many rebels in music, and still are. And it has been so throughout history. I guess also many have been opposing to their parents!? One way has been to choose another sort of music than the one the parents likes.

And in “serious” or classical music you can see this phenomenon too. Composers (mostly men, or only men!!?) going against the norms…

I come to think of a Swedish musician and composer Karl-Erik Welin (http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl-Erik_Welin ), fairly provocative. He died before he had turned 60. And in a magazine I read during Christmas it stood about the pianist Glenn Gould, a man going against the stream really. It stood in the article that he was much tied up to his mother (my interpretation?). And I get an impression he was really difficult to deal with.

Another artist I come to think of (also a man!! There are many men here, opposite to Sinéad O-Connor! A female artist behaving in the samewayas the men mentioned here, how would she have been met? How is she me today?), the Swedish painter Carl Larsson which lived near where I live. His life in Sundborn has been described very rosy idyllic. And I have the feeling the family has wanted to paint that picture!! But I don’t think it was like this at all… This is a little more admitted now.

Do many artists have had (and still have) to maintain themselves (in all genres), why they have strived for what they have achieved, and on this road, what have they brought about, left behind them)??

Karin


Report this post
Top
  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Sinead or ?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 8:03 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2007 6:20 pm
Posts: 106
Location: USA
Karin,
I think what I have to say is basically "Wow!" to everything you wrote.

Sinéad I think says herself that most people know her only from the few seconds, a long time ago now, on the comedy/entertainment show "Saturday Night Live" in which, at the end of a song, she (not having letting anyone know this was her plan) looked into the camera, held up a picture of the pope, said "Fight the real enemy" and tore it into pieces. That's really almost all I knew myself about her until recently, though I remember trying to find some of her music once, wondering if I could figure out what was making her tick.

Interesting what you wrote about "resting your ears". I mostly don't listen to music myself at all, especially recorded or from the radio. Sometimes, a little. I don't think "quiet" is sad at all, though, necessarily. In fact I think it's sad that some people have such a strong need to be 'entertained' constantly. Maybe they're looking to see if they can identify with the feelings expressed? I think you can rest easy about the fact that you react badly to what's popular in music. Normal is nuts, in my opinion anyway. There are always bright spots though, lot of times in places you don't expect.

For someone to say "trauma has come and gone" is like saying "Yes, we've had many highly-trained experts studying this issue thoroughly for several years now, and the evidence obtained now strongly suggests that one plus one do not in fact equal two. Just like we thought." Science almost never goes in a straight line. But it doesn't matter. I don't think it will be scientists who fix things anyway. Just my personal opinion.

"Poles"?

Fame is an odd thing. I think you're right, it can't fill holes. That's no reason not to try your best, though. Not to achieve fame, I just mean to be who you are and say what you have to say, do what you need to do to enjoy your life. One of my favorite guys--just based on stuff he thought and the way he lived--is a Japanese potter named Shoji Hamada. He's "famous" to at least potters, I suppose (of which I'm not one, though I messed around at it, some, for a couple years). But he'd say stuff like "It's better to be an artisan than an artist. An artist builds a house that lasts his lifetime, maybe a hundred years. An artisan builds a house that will last a thousand." I fix broken furniture for a living, by the way, and talking about good ways never to get close to becoming rich or famous.

AA is worse than a joke, despite the fact that I have yet to hear of any mental health care professional (or court system) not pushing it like it's the best thing since sliced bread. It is being shown to have a negative success rate when compared to spontaneous remission. The entrenched idea that it "works" is just another misconception that no doubt will fade away only after a period of furiously trying to deny the truth. http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.html (I'm not much of a drinker, and never was except maybe in college, some, but MAN have I seen lives destroyed just on every side of me, some of them touching my own closely. I gave "al-anon" a try--it's an AA offshoot "for friends and family"--attended a dozen or so meetings. The people within it are no more evil than anyone else--they know it and I suppose this is where the fury to defend it comes from--but the premise it's based on is completely manipulative, you're right.

I absolutely don't know a thing about how to fix people. Wish I could offer something that I thought might work but I just don't know. I think not breaking them in the first place is a FANTASTIC way to head off trouble, and that's what I hope I can maybe somehow contribute to more than anything. It's a heck of a lot easier, I think, and suspect that in my case it least it could be the most therapeutic thing I can do for myself anyhow. Don't know, just guessing. I don't like pain at all, but while arguing with a (former) friend once about the usefulness of "medication" (I've not been 'caught', and I've never used any) I realized that maybe it was a GOOD thing that my toe hurt if some big jerk was standing on it. So beyond Miller's "face the pain" stance (I think that's fairly accurate isn't it?), and do whatever you need to do about it--push the jerk off your toe, in other words (if he won't get off once asked nicely), I don't know what else there is to suggest for those of us already in a bad way. It's easy to get angry thinking about how many terribly bad-off there are, though. If I include those who maybe suffer somewhat less, but deny reality even that much more, going around insisting "Oh there's nothing wrong with me at all--I'm 'normal'," I get so angry I could puke. I suppose the truth is that almost everyone is some blend of health and illness; it's not fair to paint anyone "all" one color.

I think there are no doubt famous people who lead lives that would have to be called "just fine". I'd suppose they wear their celebrity lightly, like a cap or like it's their job, and just take it off or set it to one side at the end of a day, knowing they're just like everybody else. Regular. I dunno. That's amazing that you were taught piano by Bergman's wife.

I think you're right about Freud and "intelligent" discussions resulting in further alienation from the truth. Miller just wrote on her letters page something about intelligence being too much just something that allows people to lie more convincingly.

Yeah I don't know about artists and the things they think or why. Seems like with writers there's a lot of procrastinating going on, like they almost say something, a lot of times, and take thousands of words to do it, but couch whatever it is they're trying to spit out behind a "story line"...I don't know. Mostly as an adult I've found myself interested in non-fiction.

If you're saying music can be almost magical for the performer when done right and done in the presence of real people, I agree.
I envy you your experience with big bad church organs.

My history with the piano goes back to when I was four. After a few early lessons I stuck to it basically all my life, never getting past perhaps a first or second-grade ability to read. In high school I found a very nice teacher that never once let me hear her play what she was trying to teach me--she knew how I had been playing, so she thought I would 'cheat', picking up too much just by ear. I did what I suppose was normal stuff for a beginner, probably wasn't bad, but found my talent ended with trills and 64th notes--or whatever those ones are called that have about 40,000 little flags on their stems. Couldn't quite get all of Daquin's Le Coucou, for instance, though sometimes I can play Iljinsky's Berceuse pretty well I think. Three things about the (simplified version of?) the Moonlight Sonata for me were the fact that I imagined I'd managed to own it outright--that I'd have it for life (I've definitely forgotten sections of it), 2.) how awful and strange I felt when it seemed to me my teacher at one point was fighting tears as I played, and 3.) how odd it seemed to be having a seriously deep, seriously dead guy talking directly to me through my own fingers as if he were sitting next to me. Since then I've learned that probably everyone who learns that piece goes through I suppose about the same thing. But back to what you were saying about rebels in classical music, one thing I still can play all right, on occasion, is an Alexander Scriàbine prelude--I still have my book, it says Op.11, No.2. The thing's weird as can be, but for me somehow it was a natural fit, despite it being in three-quarter's time. Sure doesn't sound like a waltz! I stuck in sustain pedal wherever I wanted to simulate 'legato' (some notes were too far apart for that; my teacher said sustain pedal wasn't written into it but allowed me some anyway.) Well whatever. I quit lessons mainly because she wanted me to perform at a recital; I'd be the oldest there by years. So in addition to just general stage fright I'd also have to worry about being out-classed by people who could barely reach the pedals. So I went back to football after school, and killed guys instead, and did pretty well at it. Not many people have ever heard me play piano. I lived eight years, I think, in a small room in a piano warehouse/showroom, upstairs (up a long ramp, actually) and now have my furniture shop in the lower level of another. Some virtuoso with a complete handle on all the 64th notes just rented the 8-foot concert grand upstairs--I think it was called a "Haddorf"--Baldwin may have made it, not sure--and it's fairly old, fifty years maybe, but yeah sometimes there's just nothing like a good thundering bass.


Quote:
what have they brought about, left behind them)??
I know what you mean. How about "Decoration"? Isn't that enough?

Stephen Stanislaus T.


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Sinead or ?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 8:34 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 2:06 am
Posts: 486
Location: Sweden
Steve, yes, it took a while to translate the interview and the thing is, I had translated it back in 1992 for a pen friend but couldn't find a copy of the typewriter version anywhere. Then I got frustrated that the most important interview Sinéad had given is no where to be found on Internet. Maybe the most important interview any artist has given. Which other artist has said these radical truths on childhood? Does any artist these days say anything radical?

Karin, interesting that you had never heard of Sinead O'Connor. Were you never interested in popular music? Sinéad has worked together with a great number of artists, too many to mention. She has song many beautiful songs. I think the first time I heard and saw her was at the Dutch Pop Festival PinkPop in 1988 (I wasn't there though but watched it on TV). How she managed to get 50,000 people quiet...

here

Karin wrote:
She mentioned AA-movement in the interview. Isn’t that method quite manipulative?


Absolutely! She idealized both her parents, who had inflicted unmentionable cruelty to her, and states that she loved them 'very much'. Sadly, that she tried to commit suicide on her 33th birthday (8 years after that interview). She tasted the truth for a while but other people kept feeding her lies. That's why it's so important to write and spread this kind of information. Because everything and everyone that's around you, influences you.

Karin wrote:
And back to famous people and the more in Denial they are. Maybe they realize sooner or less that fame won’t resolve anything!? And are confronted in some cases with an enormous loneliness? In the worse cases a loneliness they can’t handle? And many artists (musicians too) uses drugs…


Fame is a drug as well. I don't think that artists use more drugs than other professions. Think of all the businessmen and women who use cocaine to keep themselves at the high pace. Think of all the legal drugs that go around.

Artistic expression is often connected to unresolved childhood abuse. When John Lennon went to Primal Therapy with Arthur Janov, he dropped out after 3 months, no doubt because of his feelings to be recognized and seen by his parents and his music as a replacement for that. He didn't do anything musically for years after that and in 1980 he started again to record, before he was murdered. Also notice in the interview that Sinéad didn't feel like she wanted to continue with her music and she didn't do anything for 2 years after that (I think she came with an album with some crappy covers). I know I stopped drawing comics when I realized the reason behind it. I started painting only a year ago, just for myself, without the need to please anyone. I think artistic expression can be authentic if it's an expression of yourself and not of an image one tries to pursue.

Karin wrote:
And expressing oneself through music can’t that just be abreacting things? Feels good for the moment? But doesn’t resolve anything.


Yes, I think so as well at a certain level, but it's better to express then not to express at all. It resolves some things, but not all. In the 1960s and 1970s young people abreacted through music because it was there and it was an outlet for the repressed years that were prior to that. Nowadays millions of kids are abreacting through computer games.

Karin wrote:
And when it comes to music, I saw a program in the Swedish TV now during the holidays, where a guest presents his favorite music-videos and a video they liked ones, but which is very shamy now. The guest now was a man round 33 years. I react strongly against something concerning what music seem to be for (some) people, a snobbishness I don't like and feel very uncomfortable with.


I may have seen the same program,if it was with Fredrik Wikingsson? I liked Fredrik because he's one of the few Swedes that are spontaneous and have a child-like curiosity, but jeez, the man is neurotic! It was awkward when he said that every time he hears the song Tie a Yellow Ribbon, he starts crying. Almost like he was in a hypnotic state. Maybe he was, since they have joked and experimented about that in their own program.

Karin wrote:
It struck me when I the other day read the first contribution in this topic/thread that it seems as for many they some point retreat to Denial after having read Miller. Is it at a point when the truth is starting to surface? People need to put up a thick Wall of Denial? And that's what we see in society in whole: Miller and her ideas are a bit outdated now? When I realized that she had written new books after "Paths of Life"and had a web-site soon only 3 years ago I got very glad! I can't be the only one reacting like that? Or does all have access to the net, and knows she is still active?


True, when a person comes too close and too fast to their repressed emotions of child abuse, they built newer and stronger walls. That's what makes it so difficult to communicate about all this. People choose other people as friends who are at the same level of 'awareness', because if your awareness is bigger, you're considered a threat. When people start talking about how they want the truth and that the truth is the most important, something to 'die for' as Sinéad said it, I nowadays react by pretending to be Jack Nicholson and say: The truth? You can't handle the truth! (For those who have seen the movie A Few Good Men).

Dennis

_________________
Everything I write here is my opinion, not absolute truths but I don't want to start every sentence with in my opinion...


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Sinead or ?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 9:51 pm 
Steve,

I was up very early this morning, to check my car - at 7.00 (http://www.bilprovningen.se/externt/en/ ... enDocument )! It was very early for me!! I am very slow in the mornings. And after lunch we started with three meetings and after that I had pupils to 18.00 (the last two was occupied, usually I work to 18.45). So I am a bit tired!? Let’s see if I can keep things together.

“Poles” – yes, we walk with poles, here, both old and young does! http://www.nordicwalking.com/portal/nor ... g/english/

And it was good to hear you don’t think needing to rest ones ears!! I enjoy being lot at the countryside where it is quiet and not electrical light either, as it is where my mom lives. I grew up at the countryside (my dad was agronomist and teacher and headmaster at agricultural schools here in Sweden). Dare meeting the silence. But it seems as this isn’t so unusual with people working with music.

But now writing I felt for listening to music. A tip: listen to Dies Irae by Mozart or instance. Dies Irae means "The Day of Judgement" (Vredens stora dag in Swedish). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nl-wRbJoWVA&eurl=

I thought further after I had written twice to the forum this morning, but thought I couldn’t write a third time!! And thought further in the car to work. Here some loud thinking that was triggered.

Thought about inner and outer autonomy and expressions of the revolt in people (destructive or self-destructive)…

I thought: as musician you (can, but all don’t and don’t need to?) rebel, either in the music (in how you compose if you are a composer, or in how you interpret the music) and/or in your outer appearance!? As Sinéad with her shaved head and a bit special cloths. You can oppose in this way? But you cab oppose in a lot of other ways, not only in music or in what music you choose. Oppose symbolically?

Sinéad has taken the guilt on her: “I’m bipolar!” (in the Oprah show).
The Dutch therapist Ingeborg Bosch calls this phenomenon a defence, the Primary Defence, the first the small child resort to protect itself against the truth: it’s easier to blame oneself! It’s my fault! I deserve it etc. etc. etc. But this is so painful in itself so the child switch to another defence, such as for instance False Hope: If I just… then, or by denying its needs (if it denies its needs nothing can hurt) etc.

A lot (??) of therapy seem to be about admitting ones guilt!?? So eventual therapists to Sinéad mus have been very satisfied hearing this (and Sinéad gets a “conditional” love! Obs! The irony).

Thought further on rebelling: rebelling against parents ideals, including choice of music for instance! OR adopting them or it…

Thought about detachment (from parents)… Miller writes somewhere about this: young people joining groups of different kinds and in the relation to the group they can actually re-enact the tied-up relation they had with their parents, even if it at first (or even second or third) sight looks different. Tied up in a similar way as to their parents. Thus not as free or independent as it maybe looks.

You can free or liberate yourself only on the surface in a lot of ways. And many fool both themselves and others that they are grown up and free?

What is real, genuine detachment (communication, love etc.)? What is genuine autonomy? Is an entire (total?) detachment possible? Is it necessary? What sort is certainly necessary? T what degree would be enough, good enough?

I didn’t have Käbi Laretei http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%A4bi_Lareteiv as teacher as a child… And I hadn’t thought of working with music… I have a lot of other interests too. I had Käbi as teacher during my education.

Dennis, a short reply (I saw now when I had finished this that you had answered too): the last almost 15 years it has happened a lot in my life. A period I couldn’t watch TV, read newspapers… I googled on Sinéad and, yes, I have seen her and probably heard her…

No, now some relaxation after a long day!

Karin


Report this post
Top
  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Sinead or ?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 2:00 am 
Steve wrote:
I absolutely don't know a thing about how to fix people. Wish I could offer something that I thought might work but I just don't know. I think not breaking them in the first place is a FANTASTIC way to head off trouble, and that's what I hope I can maybe somehow contribute to more than anything. It's a heck of a lot easier, I think, and suspect that in my case it least it could be the most therapeutic thing I can do for myself anyhow.

I don't know if you ever came across it, but there used to be a Primal Psychotherpay Page message board (the PPP) which went into decline and eventually closed down. Dennis set up this one as an alternative. The PPP attracted flakes who thought they could improve on Janov's theory despite having no training and no experience with patients. They just wrote lots of garbage. I don't believe there's a therapy method anywhere that can do better than help a proportion of clients to some extent. Therapy junkies might tell you otherwise. Even worse, they're quite ready to recommend therapists they've never even met! Overall, I think your approach is more healthy -- looking for opportunities to let parents know about ways to avoid breaking kids in the first place. It constructive. A therapy junkie might tell you that it's an act-out, but equally one could say that therapy is a self-indulgent activity with no guarantee of success. I think Karin summed it up very well:

Karin wrote:
And I think many of us thought back then that psycho-dynamic (Freud-inspired) etc. could help us. So many tried it. And thought we should get the help Miller wrote about; that the professionals believed in what Miller wrote. And sought such help. And got confused to different degrees by this help. And got harmed to different degrees. And landed in dead ends of different depth. This is so sad. So to explore different methods is necessary. As Dennis has initiated in Therapy Wiki part. Therapies (and therapists) that seems promising at first, but where there is subtle and obvious abuse, exploring the damaging elements in them.

PS. A news report today -- Britney Spears suffering from bipolar disorder -- http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22538726/


Report this post
Top
  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Sinead or ?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 1:15 am 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 2:06 am
Posts: 486
Location: Sweden
Steve wrote:
I absolutely don't know a thing about how to fix people. Wish I could offer something that I thought might work but I just don't know. I think not breaking them in the first place is a FANTASTIC way to head off trouble, and that's what I hope I can maybe somehow contribute to more than anything. It's a heck of a lot easier, I think, and suspect that in my case it least it could be the most therapeutic thing I can do for myself anyhow. Don't know, just guessing. I don't like pain at all, but while arguing with a (former) friend once about the usefulness of "medication" (I've not been 'caught', and I've never used any) I realized that maybe it was a GOOD thing that my toe hurt if some big jerk was standing on it.


I think feelings come before words. A baby doesn't know language and it's being conditioned by physical punishment. All his righteous and natural reactions to that pain are being suppressed by pedagogy and religion. And more conditioning of pain and reward. When I hit a hammer on my hand, I yell, curse and shake it. I feel pain because pain is the signal to stop what I'm doing because it had caused damage. If I wouldn't feel pain, I wouldn't get the signal, I would keep damaging my hand until the point I cannot use it anymore. If my hand would break, the body says: don't move,there's an emergency. Why suppressing the signal of pain by medication? Thank god for pain because it tell us something about our body. Ignore the pain, and you ignore your body. The body can heal itself, to a certain degree. Before I discovered Alice Miler's books, I had read a book called Body Power by Vernon Coleman which was quite an eye-opener for me because I learned to trust my body and its natural abilities. By reading that tears secrete the stress hormone cortisol from the body convinced me immediately: crying is healthy and life-saving. Later I read somewhere else that men (or women) who cannot cry, are building a huge dose of stress hormones, that can cause all kinds of illnesses. That makes perfectly sense to me. It's not a coincidence that macho men, and soldiers practically never cry. Crying men don't fight wars. Unfortunately no one questions the cause why so many men are emotionally cripple.

Of course it's also very healthy to prevent stress. And I think we have come to a point where we can say about human behavior, that we don't need more science, theories or evidence because it's all there on the table. It's a matter of putting the pieces together.

On Sineád's blog there are many 'thank you for speaking out on bipolar' comments. I was thinking for a moment to write a comment myself, but she probably gets really annoyed by all those people who have an opinion how she should live her life. I know I would.

Now imagine as a girl to be told you're ugly and to be beaten by your own mother. No surprise she despised her own femininity, shaved her head and wore men's clothes. Because the truth was unbearable that her mother was wrong. Imagine your own mother, the one who created you, to be against you. That's the horror of abused children, that they can't compare a good mother with a bad mother.

Ever thought of writing and composing a song for Sinéad to sing?

DRB, anyone noticed that Britney's mother is the insane one here? That woman pushed her little daughter on stage so early she could hardly walk. Mommy only loves you if you sing, dance and perform. I read that the mother will be on Dr. Phil, but that might be a rumor.

Dennis

_________________
Everything I write here is my opinion, not absolute truths but I don't want to start every sentence with in my opinion...


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Sinead or ?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 3:25 am 
That was a good find -- Sineád's blog. I would never have thought of looking for it.

Quote:
DRB, anyone noticed that Britney's mother is the insane one here? That woman pushed her little daughter on stage so early she could hardly walk. Mommy only loves you if you sing, dance and perform. I read that the mother will be on Dr. Phil, but that might be a rumor.

It's not just the mother who has a problem. Her father admires Dr. Phil. No wonder Britney is emotionally confused. To watch the Dr. Phil on TV out of mild interest or curiosity is one thing. But if the news report was accurate, Britney's father has great enthusiasm for Dr. Phil's brand of pedagogy and hoped Dr.P. could be a potential savior of his daughter.

But the whole thing is very bizarre. To say she has bipolar disorder is no kind of explanation for the strange behavior. It's just a shorthand for "we have labels, we have drugs. We don't have cures."

PS. Arthur Janov's remarks about Steven Pinker that you quoted in forum's Therapy category are a good fit for the Genetics category too.


Report this post
Top
  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Sinead or ?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 11:15 am 
Actually I should do other things than write, but I wanted to write a spontaneous reply.

Quote:
Steve wrote: ) I realized that maybe it was a GOOD thing that my toe hurt if some big jerk was standing on it.


Karin: So well said, Steve! :) And actually I have though about my dad... He often came in with wounds here and there he had got when he had been doing something with his hands, and he didn't notice that he had got hurt until afterwards. But it also seems as there is an anaesthetic mechanism working: I had hurt a finger, and had to be sewed up. The female physician couldn’t give me any anesthetics, because there was nothing to give it in. I don’t know if my fingers are more muscled also because of my playing piano, than for people in general (or not)? But there is a mechanism that puts in when you are being hurt, for the first hour (or more), until the pain sets in. But it hurt when the doctor sewed. I have also wondered about this about ears: if you expose yourself more easily for damaging noise if you are cut off from feelings, the more cut of the more you are at risk of exposing yourself. And yes, you applaud macho-men (or macho-people in general) who have their emotions and feelings in check!?

Quote:
Dennis wrote: I think feelings come before words. A baby doesn't know language and it's being conditioned by physical punishment. All his righteous and natural reactions to that pain are being suppressed by pedagogy and religion. And more conditioning of pain and reward. /.../ It's not a coincidence that macho men, and soldiers practically never cry. Crying men don't fight wars. Unfortunately no one questions the cause why so many men are emotionally crippled.


Karin: Yes, I think you are right, sad to say...

Quote:
Dennis wrote: Of course it's also very healthy to prevent stress. And I think we have come to a point where we can say about human behavior, that we don't need more science, theories or evidence because it's all there on the table. It's a matter of putting the pieces together.


Karin: Noone questioning the actual roots!! Scary!

Quote:
Dennis wrote: DRB, anyone noticed that Britney's mother is the insane one here? That woman pushed her little daughter on stage so early she could hardly walk. Mommy only loves you if you sing, dance and perform. I read that the mother will be on Dr. Phil, but that might be a rumor.


Karin: Karin: how many don't? But maybe not in the way that some (the most extreme) do - and have done during history (see Mozart for example!)? They have written in the papers here about increasing violence against children, and wonders about the Nanny-programs AND Dr. Phil's show. I can't watch those programs at all... There was an article in a paper herewith the title "Super-Nanny makes parents violent". I have written about these things here (a lot is only in Swedish though): http://reflektionerochspeglingar.blogsp ... y-programs (referring to this as I have limited time to write now, unfortunately).

Karin


Report this post
Top
  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Sinead or ?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 6:21 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2007 6:20 pm
Posts: 106
Location: USA
It's nice to know there's sanity out there. Sorry if it sounds like I'm 'kissing up' to this forum. Had to say it. Don't like having to use 'sanity' but nothing else comes to mind offhand.

Some information, locally:
A 25-year-old father was sentenced here yesterday to 3 years in jail for beating his 6-year-old son with a leather belt. It was the boy's school principal who reported it after seeing bruises. Spanking is legal, here, both by parents and teachers (though apparently only if no bruising results--in this case it was a 'class D felony'). The father had past convictions for battery and theft; is now considered a 'habitual offender'. I have never heard of a teacher hitting a child here.

A "Juvenile Justice/Detention Center" is being planned for this area, now in land acquisition stages. Nightmarish as those things tend to be, there seems to be a serious intent to offer and emphasize (maybe require?) family therapy and educational programs in this same facility.

That's all I had wanted to say when I logged in. Thought those were both stories that show how "regular" people are trying to move in the right direction. Over the past ten years or so we've had to endure a number of news stories about 'shaken baby' deaths, and there was one particularly terrible torture-murder of a four-year-old girl by her father and step-mother (and bureaucratic bungling) that no one here will ever forget. It's had everyone looking for answers. It led me personally directly to "For Your Own Good".

Karin:

I've downloaded the Mozart, will listen when I get a chance. Thanks.

D.R.B.
I saw some old discussion somewhere once between some Primal people, not sure if that''s what you referenced or not. Had been hunting for serious criticism/rebuttal of Miller. But when it comes to therapy generally, the bottom line for me is that while some of it MAY be tremendously beneficial for some people--GOD you hate to hear stories of people messed-up and hurting--and I do think many times much good can come of it--it strikes me that even IF some perfect "school" were to be developed there simply could never be enough therapists to go around (or be any hope at all of paying them). With some effort I could find the page I read this, but some guy, 'big' in "personality disorders", estimates that 3 out of 10 people on earth 'suffer' from one type or another. (The guy who first scientifically estimated the age of the earth came up with: "No, it's not 6,000 years old, it's ten or even fifTEEN thousand"... so you can see what I suspect about that other expert's estimate.) The point is, even if 3 out of 10 is accurate--and don't forget this JUST regards 'personality disorders'--unless I pushed some wrong buttons on my calculator, it would require an entire U.S.A. 1954's population worth of therapists--something like 150,000,000 of them (sorry, it's been a while since I did the arithmetic) working forty hour weeks to give each of just THOSE people just 45 minutes of their time per week. So--since 'Plan B' stinks ("Ah, just give 'em a bunch of pills and forget it"), well I'm not sure what's next. Actually I think Sinéad screaming her head off that "EVERYTHING SUCKS!" can be taken as a pretty fair sign that in spite of all the "corrective measures" all the institutions have been trying to ram down everyone's throats for so long that we do, in fact, maybe got us a pretty healthy spontaneous remission going on. So maybe it's just a matter now of simply hanging in there. I personally want to feel good now--what I mean is that it's great if we can help future people avoid suffering--I can't think of any more worthwhile effort anyone could make--but dammit those of us here NOW have the right to shoot for the same thing. Durn hard when you're mostly surrounded by crazy people, tho.

Dennis:
Besides a song I did for a joke that sounds probably too much like "Don't Think Twice" and has all fake French lyrics (I don't speak a word of French--well "Oui, oui", I guess, and "Paté Verde", which I learned the hard way means "Little Friskies" [cat food] in English), I've only written one song in the last four years, and so far I haven't been inclined to do any more. I'm obsessed with that one. Even if Sinéad wanted it (she wouldn't--the words are bummer-oriented but the music is about going "Yeah!" and feeling so great that you have to dance) she can't have it. It's MINE do you hear? MINE all MINE!

Steve
(Oh yeah I thought "pole" meant "Polish". How embarrassin'! I did check out Käbi Laretei some, the other night, even found some short samples of her playing. The world's an amazing place.)


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Sinead or ?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 8:25 pm 
D.R.B.:
Quote:
D.R.B. wrote: It's just a shorthand for "we have labels, we have drugs. We don't have cures."

Karin: Yes, I agree...
Steve:
Quote:
Steve wrote: Some information, locally:
A 25-year-old father was sentenced here yesterday to 3 years in jail for beating his 6-year-old son with a leather belt. It was the boy's school principal who reported it after seeing bruises. Spanking is legal, here, both by parents and teachers (though apparently only if no bruising results--in this case it was a 'class D felony'). The father had past convictions for battery and theft; is now considered a 'habitual offender'. I have never heard of a teacher hitting a child here.

A "Juvenile Justice/Detention Center" is being planned for this area, now in land acquisition stages. Nightmarish as those things tend to be, there seems to be a serious intent to offer and emphasize (maybe require?) family therapy and educational programs in this same facility.

That's all I had wanted to say when I logged in. Thought those were both stories that show how "regular" people are trying to move in the right direction.

Karin: I got glad hearing you reacted! And that things are being done. Why I wanted to write a reply. Could hug you for this! :)
Quote:
Steve wrote: Over the past ten years or so we've had to endure a number of news stories about 'shaken baby' deaths, and there was one particularly terrible torture-murder of a four-year-old girl by her father and step-mother (and bureaucratic bungling) that no one here will ever forget.

Karin: Good to hear you react again, that you react with indignation!
Quote:
Steve wrote: I've downloaded the Mozart, will listen when I get a chance. Thanks.

Karin: Hope you enjoy it! The whole Requiem is fantastic music. And I liked Bernstein's interpretation!! A fast tempo compared to another interpretation I found. Bernstein seemed to have honest and serious and fairly humble? A pity he is dead (since fairly many years?).
Quote:
Steve wrote: ...some guy, 'big' in "personality disorders", estimates that 3 out of 10 people on earth 'suffer' from one type or another. (The guy who first scientifically estimated the age of the earth came up with: "No, it's not 6,000 years old, it's ten or even fifTEEN thousand"... so you can see what I suspect about that other expert's estimate.) The point is, even if 3 out of 10 is accurate--and don't forget this JUST regards 'personality disorders'--unless I pushed some wrong buttons on my calculator, it would require an entire U.S.A. 1954's population worth of therapists--something like 150,000,000 of them (sorry, it's been a while since I did the arithmetic) working forty hour weeks to give each of just THOSE people just 45 minutes of their time per week.

Karin: Gosh! That's not thinkable! (would like to tease with you with glittering eyes. :)
Quote:
Steve wrote: all the "corrective measures"

Karin: That was the right word "corrective measures"!
Quote:
Steve wrote: I personally want to feel good now--what I mean is that it's great if we can help future people avoid suffering--I can't think of any more worthwhile effort anyone could make--but dammit those of us here NOW have the right to shoot for the same thing. Durn hard when you're mostly surrounded by crazy people, tho.

Karin: What can one do? Start with oneself and do the best one can!? And try to inform about these things everywhere where it is constructive. I have had an exchange with a friend via email, and she wrote something in her last email that made me realize that all people don't want to change... We have been exchanging thoughts about therapists...
Quote:
Steve wrote: ...she can't have it. It's MINE do you hear? MINE all MINE!

Karin: No, keep it for yourself! :)
Quote:
Steve wrote: Oh yeah I thought "pole" meant "Polish". How embarrassin'!

Karin: :-)
Quote:
Steve wrote: The world's an amazing place.

Karin: Yes, it is!

And we have Friskies here too!! :)

Warmly
Karin


Report this post
Top
  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Sinead or ?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 9:21 pm 
Steve wrote:
The point is, even if 3 out of 10 is accurate--and don't forget this JUST regards 'personality disorders'--unless I pushed some wrong buttons on my calculator, it would require an entire U.S.A. 1954's population worth of therapists--something like 150,000,000 of them (sorry, it's been a while since I did the arithmetic) working forty hour weeks to give each of just THOSE people just 45 minutes of their time per week.

That's an amazing coincidence. I did some similar calculations before Christmas, but didn't post them. I went away over the holiday season. I've posted them below. But first, here are some figures for all those other kinds of 'disorders' apart from 'personality disorders'. They're official -- from the National Institute of Mental Health (NIMH). It says "An estimated 26.2 percent of Americans ages 18 and older -- about one in four adults -- suffer from a diagnosable mental disorder in a given year." Not in a lifetime, in any one year!

http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publicat ... rica.shtml

Before Christmas, I wrote:
In society as a whole, psychotherapy can help some of the people some of the time. People who voluntarily seek assistance. There is no possibility that psychotherapy on a wide scale could solve society's problems. Is it realistic to expect one half of society to become therapists (the self-identified 'healthy' half) and treat the 'disordered' half, one-to-one? If one therapist could deal with 20 clients simultaneously, with a successful outcome in less than 2 years (which would rule out primal therapy), several million therapists would be required for the continent of North America alone. Even then, some clients could remain on the waiting list for decades. And no psychotherapist anywhere has claimed a 100% success rate.

I did my calculation on the basis of a therapist's working lifetime.


Report this post
Top
  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Forum locked This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 104 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next

All times are UTC + 1 hour [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group