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Childhood trauma and its consequences
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 Post subject: Re: Sinead or ?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 7:16 pm 
Steve,

A couple of things (a bit off topic??). I have just returned from work and am about to try to relax now. I have thought of saying this:

First: you played quiet advanced piano-music!! :) I don't play pieces like these with so many pupils/students (in the ages 6 to 20 years with a whole range of different interests).

And second, I have thought about something I wrote... What I meant with that you should keep your song for yourself was: performing it yourself and sharing it in that way! :) So there is no misunderstanding? I really hope you interpreted it so!

Karin


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 Post subject: Re: Sinead or ?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 3:57 am 
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Hi Karin,

Yes I think I took everything the way you intended, was fun, sorry I didn't acknowledge sooner. You're very kind!

Steve


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 Post subject: Re: Sinead or ?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 12:45 pm 
Steve, thank you for the reply. :)

Dennis, I have thought of translating parts of the interview with Sinéad O'Connor to Swedish on my blog. I hope that's ok?
Writing is a way for me to process things I think? And sometimes it is scary too? As if it can touch things?

warmly
Karin


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 Post subject: Re: Sinead or ?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 1:46 am 
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I've moved the last part of this thread here:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=199

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 Post subject: Re: Sinead or ?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 4:44 am 
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I'm adding to this thread only because this is where I mentioned my barbequed guitar (broken on my head in ~1968) (I THINK I've recovered...hard to tell from the inside looking out sometimes...)--didn't feel right to start a new one. Really the video is experimental--I've never uploaded anything to You Tube or any place like it before--I might delete it soon if it generates the kind of response I expect (like "WhAAAAT?"), but for the time being it's open to the world and takes 50 seconds. The fallen but very much alive apple tree might represent a medicated Ms. O'Connor--just in need of support--and the weird rainbow at the end could be...possibly...well however viewers might like to interpret it is good. For what it's worth: http://youtube.com/watch?v=061P8xluGcQ Steve


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 Post subject: Re: Sinead or ?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 8:08 am 
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Wow, you burned your guitar. Indeed a very experimental video but your description helped. How anyone uses a guitar to hit a child on the head with is beyond me. Guitars make music, not agony (well, except if I would start playing). But the guitar was never to blame, was it?

Dennis

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 Post subject: Re: Sinead or ?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 10:20 am 
Steve,

I agree: Wow!!! And yes, the video was indeed experimental! How nice with all that snow!? :)
How can one do such a thing to a kid!!! You should have beaten her (your mom) back! :evil: Or??
But you went on playing!?? I hope!!

Hug
Karin

PS. And Dennis, about you playing: :) (with glittering eyes... I think I can see you there with your guitar???).
I'll try to add a picture. Let's see f I succeed? Tried to find a picture illustrating this posting (a karate! Three of my sibling have tested it! I haven't). If I have understood anything about html (by trial and error and mistake)??
Image


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 Post subject: Re: Sinead or ?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 10:38 am 
PPS. Hmmm, now it's me that is blushing red... :oops: Help, Dennis or anyone!! How do one do?? And how do one erase or rub postings or edit them after they are posted?? :oops: I'm sorry!


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 Post subject: Re: Sinead or ?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 2:39 pm 
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Karin, I corrected your image code, I think. But maybe there's supposed to happen more? You can only link an image if it ends on .jpg .gif or .png and is put between these:

Code:
[img]the link to your picture[/img]


I removed editing rights here because people were misusing this as they removed suddenly entire posts. If anyone wants to change or edit a post, they can contact me. But you can always read and view your post before you submit it (preview), and correct it then.

Dennis

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 Post subject: Re: Sinead or ?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 8:05 am 
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Karin,

"Hitting back" wasn't anything I ever considered. For a lot of reasons it was out of the question. I've heard of kids doing that, though it wasn't the way for me. But you have me thinking. I don't mean about 'revenge', I just mean thinking. Whoa. In another tab, I just now Googled "learned helplessness", skimmed one article. I'll tell you what: I think I did okay, escaped 'home' finally "with all my fingers and toes", emotionally, or at least most of them. I don't know.

Dennis,

The guitar was a Christmas gift given to me by my parents about three years earlier. They'd kept it hidden in a corner, away from the other presents. I didn't often show anger directly toward them in those days, but after my siblings had opened all their stuff and I'd received a stick of deodorant, I spluttered out "So you're telling me I stink?"--the thought now of expecting or wanting to accept anything at all from those people under the circumstances in which I lived then makes me sick, but at that moment I felt "cheated". And showed it. Well, it had been a setup. My mother in particular I think knew or at least hoped very much I'd react exactly the way I did. Displayed anger by kids in my family would normally be grounds for punishment. This occasion though gave her (and my father, right beside her) the chance to laugh at me, 'unperturbed', 'knowing' and 'wise' in front of the other kids (I'd been singled out for years already as the one with a 'problem'; it's clear now they'd done this to help make the 'point' to the other kids that I was foolish and that the "supposed issues" I had with my parents were not worth taking seriously), and eventually calmly ask "Say! What's that over in the corner behind the chair?" and then laugh at me again when it "turned out" to be for me and to be that guitar. They'd set me up to humiliate myself. I'd done that for them pretty well, and then something I now consider to be just as bad or worse: I gladly accepted that guitar (a pretty cheap one), even though humiliated. I think you might call that "parent-assisted selling yourself out".

Burning the guitar doesn't change what I did or what they did, but keeping it around as a "memento" or something was pretty useless too. The neck was bent so bad I gave up and tried making a slide guitar out of it, but I could never get a good sound from it. Anyway, I don't think it hurt much when she broke it on me. I know that within a few seconds I was thinking about how I might try to get it back together, not much else.



Steve


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 Post subject: Re: Sinead or ?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 11:39 am 
Steve,

No, maybe it was lucky you didn't hit your mom then? A 14-year old (??) boy can be strong!? But how much harm does smaller child cause a grownup if he/she should start to beat its parents?

You described your situation so well! There on Christmas... How and where to turn, how to meet what happened?? Laughed at, humiliated. The whole family laughing. Was this the only occasion when you got laughed at? Maybe you had experienced this earlier? As much smaller. Only in forms o smiles from above? From one "knowing better" (as you wrote too?). The despair and yes, as you write feeling of helplessness.

The adequate feeling would have been rage?

And, no, I don't think anything of what you wrote deserves to be belittled or minimized...

And even if that guitar in your head didn't hurt physically so much (didn't it??) it probably hurt in other ways?? Being treated so by your mom, who should love and be caring with something that probably meant a lot; the guitar!!?? Terrible!!

Yesterday I tried to add a photo I swiftly chose. With a html-code (I thought). But what was added in two posts was just a lot of sign, letters, numbers! Why I became so blushing red. Dennis was kind to erase them! Let's see if I manage to add that picture now?? I am going to check if I have succeeded by previewing my post! :)

Many warm thoughts to you
Karin
Image

YES!!!! I succeeded!!! Amazing!! :)

The man on the picture : grounded??? "Don't come here - then!!!?

There is a small dog in my life (sometimes) which I am very fond of... I have to smile once and again over his reactions!! It is a he!! A he with a lot of own will! A cairn terrier (so he is quite small, but sounds very tough sometimes, when we are out walking in the forest for instance. "Oh, yo really sound dangerous!!" I have to say to him). You aren't allowed to hug him!! How much you even would want (the more you want??)! You can see it on his whole body-language (I think :wink: ). And he shows his feelings/emotions quite clearly! (at least as I see it, mirroring myself or something??). You can see when he isn't in the mood. Other times he shows his gladness enormously, running around! And he still likes to play (especially with balls of all sizes), despite he recently turned 5 years!! This interest in dogs has come as grown up! I have respect for animals, even though I have had a lot of them around me since I was born. Or because I have had? I rode horses every day almost in my teens...

Human beings are so controlled!!?? Our brain?? :)


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 Post subject: Re: Sinead or ?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 6:39 pm 
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Karin,

Parents have all the power. They control essentials like food and shelter. The only thing a kid--some of us anyway--can do is his best to keep believing in himself, not give in to the garbage reality that his parents try to feed him. During that period I spent a lot of time thinking of escape plans. I was fairly confident I could disappear, live as a 'wild boy' in the woods--just for a few years until I was old enough to be legally hired in a factory, I thought. (The outside world I thought then was largely 'okay', or okay enough that I could find a way to live free and be happy.) What killed the idea was realizing I'd have to burn wood to survive the winters. My smoke would be detected sooner or later... A hundred years ago in a less 'developed' time or place I might have gone for it. At fifteen suicide presented itself as being a rational possible move, something to think about. At sixteen it hit me that two years was all that was left of life at 'home'. Was a huge moment; optimism flooded back in and stayed there for the duration. I still had no control--and those years were awful despite the fact that I soon 'eyeballed' the parents out of ever hitting me again--not threatening, just a steady stare without raising my arms to protect myself during a beating taking place in the presence of the rest of the family--but 'poisoned' or not, I'd taken sixteen years worth of their food, shelter and 'protection'--and survived--I knew I could gag down two more.

Whew. Now that you've mastered html, Karin, how's about creating a new thread and redirecting us there? I hadn't meant to exhume this one from the grave, at least not for this long. I don't do html myself much, barely know what it is. Also, I hate trying to think of titles.

Dogs are absolutely fascinating to watch for their personalities. I'm with you on that one. I think I see the parallel to the 'grounded' karate guy.

Oh you asked if I was laughed at other times as well. The short answer I'm sure is 'yes', but I'd have to search the memory for specific instances and if you don't mind I just don't feel like telling more stories right now. The important thing is probably just to realize that humiliation has existed for a long time in many flavors in the parental 'tool kit', and it's about as nutritious as arsenic.
Good thing I have an iron stomach. Most favorite food: pizzas smothered in jalapeño peppers. With or without cracked cayenne on top. Great thing about jalapeños actually (especially when roasted) is their fantastic flavor, I think. (Off topic?)

take care,
Steve

PS I tried to ride a horse once. I'm better off just petting them I think, and sticking to cars.


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 Post subject: Re: Sinead or ?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 10:23 pm 
Steve,

Thank you for telling your story. For the confidence.
Quote:
Steve wrote: At sixteen it hit me that two years was all that was left of life at 'home'. Was a huge moment; optimism flooded back in and stayed there for the duration. I still had no control--and those years were awful despite the fact that I soon 'eyeballed' the parents out of ever hitting me again--not threatening, just a steady stare without raising my arms to protect myself during a beating taking place in the presence of the rest of the family--but 'poisoned' or not, I'd taken sixteen years worth of their food, shelter and 'protection'--and survived--I knew I could gag down two more.

Karin: Oh, great, that you could protect yourself!!
Quote:
Steve wrote: Whew. Now that you've mastered html, Karin, how's about creating a new thread and redirecting us there? I hadn't meant to exhume this one from the grave, at least not for this long. I don't do html myself much, barely know what it is. Also, I hate trying to think of titles.

Karin: That I know anything about html is really much to say (far, far too much). I felt after my experimenting yesterday that I should need thorough courses both in that and in English. But when I have learnt (if I ever learn, have time and/or get an opportunity) I will gladly redirect you all there. And instruct all, who don’t know, very, very pedagogically as the teacher I am!! I promise!  And now I had to search on it, found a site I will link to my blog think!

It sounds as you know more about html, Steve, honestly!!
Quote:
Steve wrote: Dogs are absolutely fascinating to watch for their personalities. I'm with you on that one. I think I see the parallel to the 'grounded' karate guy.

Karin: Now I have to read or watch what I actually wrote! If there was a connection between the karate-guy and my dog-talk… No, it wasn’t meant as a parallel… As the creative and spontaneous I am I do neck-breaking switches from subject to subject?? See all kind of connections everywhere?? Phew!
Quote:
Steve wrote: Oh you asked if I was laughed at other times as well. The short answer I'm sure is 'yes', but I'd have to search the memory for specific instances and if you don't mind I just don't feel like telling more stories right now. The important thing is probably just to realize that humiliation has existed for a long time in many flavors in the parental 'tool kit', and it's about as nutritious as arsenic.

Karin: Oh, I would like to give your parents a smack (slap)!!! But what you wrote about your son, how you wrote about it, felt so heart-warming! So you weren’t killed entirely as a human being!!! And no I don’t mind at all if you don’t want to tell more - or anything at all… But I appreciate what you have shared a lot.

And I got a tip from a friend about an article where it said that fathers means as much to their infants than mothers do!! And that fathers have the same capacities as mothers! But boys, and later the men, haven’t trained these sides… It was worse earlier, today it’s a little better (or much better). I begrudge both men and their children that experience!! I think I will blog about that when I get time. It was about bonding, John Bowlby and a Swedish researcher Philip Whang. See the second half of this document: http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=df69fw ... ztf3&hl=sv about the family in Sweden. These facts are taken from here.http://www.sweden.se/templates/cs/FactS ... 17932.aspx
Quote:
Steve wrote: Good thing I have an iron stomach. Most favorite food: pizzas smothered in jalapeño peppers. With or without cracked cayenne on top. Great thing about jalapeños actually (especially when roasted) is their fantastic flavor, I think. (Off topic?)

Karin: Yes, I like that too, but pizza is maybe not my absolute favourite food. And, yes, this is really out of topic!!? 
Quote:
Steve wrote: take care,

Karin: I try the best I can…
Take care you too  Hug to you (I hope you don’t mind?? Or?)
Karin

PS. Now we are very off topic!! Aren’t we??


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 Post subject: Re: Sinead or ?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 12:32 am 
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Steve, how manipulative that scene was, a mother trying to teach her son a lesson about appreciation. Abusive parents are always the hardest on the one kid that rebels the most. If your mom had hit a stranger's kid on the head with a guitar, there would be no doubt of a criminal or even psychotic act. There would have been most probably legal consequences for her. But between the four walls of her family, all bets are off and the kids are defenseless. How to read that you had no expectations of a loving and respecting mother anymore and worried instead about your guitar, is making my head shake. That a parent start a war against a child that is no match.

Like you, I also had escape plans, the first serious one when I was 16, wanting to sneak on a freight ship to foreign countries but my friend bailed out on the morning we were supposed to leave and I was too scared to go alone. When I was 18, my parents made life unbearable for me because they threatened and ridiculed me so often, I had to leave. I really didn't want to run away from home and wander the streets, so I stayed home but eventually I had to. Standing in front of the window in my room, I gave myself one week to find a room to rent in the city. And on the 7th day I had found one (I was on the lowest welfare you could imagine and no landlord enjoys hearing that), and a week later I lived on my own. But I was still a child. Still helpless but convinced to do it all alone. I kept surviving like I was used to.

Karin, I have no idea what you try to communicate with that image. Actually, I have sometimes a hard time trying to figure out what you are saying because you go in so many directions. It's okay to get off-topic once in a while and be sure to keep your spontaneity, but in my opinion the readers here would understand things better if it's something related to the topic. You can always start a new thread on something related to the topics of this site. I understand that there are many things that are connected, and all of them are interesting but it's important to keep clarity.

Dennis

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 Post subject: Re: Sinead or ?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 5:34 pm 
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Dennis wrote:
If your mom had hit a stranger's kid on the head...


Dennis,
That would have been like you slashing the tires on a stranger's car. Slashing your own tires though is legal and no one else's business. Sometimes there might be a good reason to slash your tires, like for instance those times when you get your car jammed under an overpass that's a little low and you just can't get it out any other way. Or maybe it's snowing and you need better traction. The wonderful thing about freedom is that we make whatever choices we feel are best for us and no one but us can tell us what to do with our personal property. Well except in certain areas where you have to get permission from a judge, practically, to change the color of your front door. And when in Boston years back I was told it's illegal there to replace a broken wall switch, that in the interest of public safety, trained and qualified Union personnel *only* must be hired to perform this risky, technical task. And I heard of a guy here who got in a bunch of trouble because during a divorce he cut his house into equal halves with a chain saw. Opps--just checked. That was in Germany. Never mind.

There was no expectation destroyed because of the guitar incident. There was no "anymore" involved, no love lost. She'd been basically like that since I can remember. I believe I did match her, though, just in terms of holding on. It's all right. I'm all right, or at least mostly. But nobody ought to ever have to experience life like that. Ever. There's no reason for it. What makes me just angrier than I can say right now is that the more I look the more I can see that my own experience--much as I wouldn't wish it on a tapeworm--lies apparently toward the LOWER end of the scale--I can't think of a single good reason why anyone on this planet should have to experience life at 'home' as even a mildly bad dream, yet it's clear that WAY too many--and thanks to no one but their own screwed-up parents--it's been a total nightmare. I appreciate understanding VERY much (it's RARE!) but have never exactly sought "support". I AM, though, interested in slapping the crap out whatever disease this is that makes everybody so unbelievably stupid and blind. Any way I'm able. It's personal, if you see what I'm saying. Most every life I can think of around me as an adult has been damaged one way or another--and many of them miserably ended--way too early--by the exact same thing--whether admitted or not. And I'm not exaggerating. I could list these people and write about them. Lot of alcohol, lot of 'mental illness'. And it's just what's there--not what I'm 'attracted to', somehow, it's just what's there.

Doesn't that suck when friends bail on you at the last minute? The freighter escape would really have been something.


Karin,

You're all right. And yes, I'm pleased to accept hugs from you. Just watch it with the glittering eyes please. I have practically NO powers against eyes when used right. :wink: Maybe once more sometime wouldn't be so bad.

Steve
Oh that reminds me. I've been struggling with the idea of putting a Valentine's day thing up on You Tube. Called "Oh, l'more". I'm worried it might offend French people, for one thing. 3-year old song, written as a joke/parody and as a way of taking a break from a more serious effort back when I was in so much love-pain I realized I could probably write another "Layla"--
Whew, guess I about have to now.

Okay it's uploading but I won't have an URL for a while. If you want to take a chance you could try copy/pasting into the search at You Tube:

Oh, l'more


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