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Childhood trauma and its consequences
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 Post subject: Forum confusion
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 12:03 pm 
Yesterday I posted a message on the PPP saying that the new primal forum had moved to freepgs.com. Today I took a look at the original alternative forum at http://primal.my-forums.net and somebody must have misunderstood, because a new user called "Frauchan" registered there yesterday. Dennis, maybe you should do what you did on the spboards.com forum and put a redirect message in every single post.

ian copeland


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 3:47 pm 
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I locked the first Forum and posted postings and links there that we've moved to this Forum. I also sent the new person a pm and email about this site.

Thanks for letting me know this.

Dennis


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 9:17 pm 
Since November, when the forum relocated to this site, there haven't been many topics or replies from new people. About half the frequent posters also post on the PPP from time to time. I've just taken a quick look. It's a hopeless case. I doubt many first time visitors would read beyond the first few threads before becoming disillusioned. How would they discover that this forum exists? In search engine results the Primal-Page ranks higher for primal-related keywords. In fact, I could only find this forum by typing the index page title within quotes. I suppose it's also possible there aren't many people who want to discuss primal stuff on a public forum.

I used to have a phpBB discussion board and a blog hosted at FreePgs.com. Then there was a fire at the data center in October 2005 and all the sites were offline for more than a month so I switched to another hosting company. It was sad that I had to do it because FreePgs are definitely the best value for money by far, despite occasional outages due to bandwidth hogs who abuse the system. One unfortunate thing was that my site used to be listed on DMOZ and the Google directory, but when their spiders could no longer find the site the listings were automatically deleted. The knock-on effect was that the site's Google PageRank(TM) fell to zero and the number of visitors to the new site was a fraction of what it was before. Good quality incoming links are the key to getting more traffic from Google.

ian copeland


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 9:35 pm 
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Though John Speyrer's forum is open for anyone, the level of quality is very low. Those who made very interesting postings in the past, like Kerry from the UK, gave up after a while. But in the beginning it took quite a while before John's Forum took off, despite the fact it was connected to his own site. I asked John at first if he wanted a phpbb forum and I would set it up for free for him, but he declined the offer as he felt he didn't have time for it to learn to moderate it. He said he would mention this forum on his site, which he never did. I will post another message there, to mention this one. I've posted in some other forums and some of the reactions were: 'very interesting, I'll have a look again later' but maybe people forget or they are overwhelmed by all this information on the net. I've submitted this site to various search engines.

You just reminded me I should make a back up of the forum...

What kind of work do you do, Ian? You seem to know your stuff about computers.

Google is one way to get visitors. But if you live near a public library, printing out the name of this site and hide it in those books related, could also work. I'll try to spread the word again the coming week.

Dennis


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 10:32 pm 
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What kind of work do you do, Ian?


I'm a freelance graphic designer specializing in graphics & images for websites. I get work from web design companies that are staffed by techno-geeks who are hopeless at that sort of thing themselves.

In your recent reply to Linda you wrote:

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I'm not particular interested in philosophical discussions about the truth. Unless it's been put in the context of child rearing. I like to see this forum focussing more on the work of Arthur Janov, Alice Miller and Ellie van Winkle. There are already enough forums on the net that deal with mysticism and philosophical debates. I personally like to explore the practical implications of these writers in connection to our own lives.


I couldn't agree more, and I wouldn't place a link to this forum on my site until people actually do start exploring the practical implications in their own lives. My site and forum does exactly that, but in the context of autobiographies that have been published and widely read.

ian copeland


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 10:59 pm 
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The truth is, I hate to say, very few people are interested in primal therapy. There is a forum called ewail which is for IPA members. Probably 50 people are registered. There really are no postings of personal primal process and very few on theoretical discussion. These are advanced primallers with their own support systems and they don't need an internet group for help. The people on the PSG group are located for the most part in isolated areas and find the group useful for support.
General and theoretical discussions seem to amount to one person taking another's reality away. So, in the end, this is not much different than a personal attack. For that reason they tend to be frowned upon in the above groups I've mentioned. I find, for myself these type discussions sometimes interesting and don't find internet "support" useful.

I really doubt that this group will get a large following. Few people will likely want to post on personal issues here. Theoretical discussions lead to strong opinions and emotions as is displayed on the PPP. I don't see why this forum would be different in that respect. It is often interesting to see people's opinions or to see them struggling with the idea of a deep feeling therapy and whether it will work or not. That is basically what goes on at the PPP board.
For a large following here, the discussions would probably have to deviate from feeling therapy.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 6:55 pm 
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General and theoretical discussions seem to amount to one person taking another's reality away. So, in the end, this is not much different than a personal attack.


I wonder if the title of the forum, "Theory and Practice", attracts intellectualizers and puts off people who are looking for a place to share 'personal' experiences. I haven't seen much concern for other people's feelings in the theoretical debates that have been going on here -- and even less on the PPP.

Alice Miller was mentioned only once on my forum -- a short thread that ended up with someone saying that the stories in "Paths of Life" seemed contrived and shallow compared to real autobiographies.

ian copeland


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 12:46 am 
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I think most forums that deal directly with child abuse don't do well. It's still a taboo and connected to pain, which shouldn't be underestimated. At the website of AAaC, there's even a message to explain the underlying causes for not expressing yourself about your childhood past but it doesn't seem to help.

Few people are interested in Primal Theory because it's a radical theory that hasn't been explained properly. Funny enough, a week ago there was a Swedish documentary on Swedish TV about the history of mental health and suddenly, when they were in the 1970's, Arthur Janov was there, being interviewed in Sweden. It's the first time I saw him on TV. Unfortunately they felt they had to show a big room afterwards, where people were laying on the floor and one was beating against the wall screaming. I think people get the feeling of cult-like therapy.

Maybe too much is being emphasized on therapy regarding Primal Pain and not so much on prevention. Indeed, prevention is the best cure.

But whenever someone is interested in human suffering and has a large knowledge about different therapies and psychology in general, they often have never heard of Janov nor Alice Miller. And when they do read a book by them, they're absolutely amazed. So, who or what is keeping these discoveries back?

Ian, what would you suggest for a good title for the Forum?

Dennis


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 2:27 am 
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One main problem with primal has been the way Janov has behaved about his discovery. No one will cite his work and it is not usually mentioned in psychology textbooks. His ideas need to be rediscovered.
I don't know much about Alice Miller.

Primal pain can be prevented by better parenting and birth procedures.
Telling people how to be better parents through education may help a little. Good hospital procedures will help a lot. The big limit to this is that the parents are neurotic.
A neurotic woman will have trouble with childbirth. Neurotic parents will transmit that down to their children no matter how much they are educated. You can't educate away your neurosis. It will still be there to effect the children.
There is growing awareness about different forms of child abuse. But there is really no awareness of how poor the parenting really is. The average kid is raised to be quite neurotic.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 2:36 pm 
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Ian, what would you suggest for a good title for the Forum?

A good question. I think Phil may be right that discussions shouldn't be too closely tied to feeling therapy. The name should perhaps not be tied to 'primal' or a small list of authors. I don't have the perfect answer ready and waiting. A short title would be more memorable than a long one. Words that come to mind include -- childhood legacy -- resolving -- overcoming -- the word 'emotion' in preference to 'feelings'. Perhaps include the word 'taboo', or on a more positive note, refer to 'emotional health'.

Maybe you could start a new topic to gather suggestions and set up a poll when there are several to choose from. Polls are restricted to registered members. I don't know if that would encourage a few more people to register.

"Childhood - ending the taboo"
"Emotional health and childhood"

To check if suggested names have been used already, type them into Google (within quotes).

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So, who or what is keeping these discoveries back?

My personal opinion is that in most (all?) countries of the world the education system is designed to turn people into conformist thinkers who will accept whatever explanations authority figures offer for society's problems. I think only charismatic 'free thinkers' can influence conventional attitudes, and then only a little bit at a time. Arthur Janov spoiled his chances by claiming too much and treating other practitioners as rivals.

Alice Miller wrote her best books more than 15 years ago and the world of psychotherapy has changed since then. Psychoanalysis is out of favour. In the early 1990s, over-zealous therapists were trying too hard to find 'recovered memories' and there was a backlash that killed off the credibility of anyone who took that approach. And it's probably true that many therapists were looking for recovered memories in clients who's problems were of a different nature. To a large extent psychotherapy is influenced by cultural attitudes. The psychoanalyst Erich Fromm died in 1980, but at one time he was very influential. In his book "The Sane Society" he wrote:

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"... many psychiatrists and psychologists refuse to entertain the idea that society as a whole may be lacking in sanity. They hold that the problem of mental health in a society is only that of the number of "unadjusted" individuals, and not that of a possible unadjustment of the culture itself."

ian copeland


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 12:50 pm 
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I'll have to think a bit more about the title of this site/forum. I don't want to make the impression that it's about good parenting. There are already thousands of forums and sites like that with endless good parenting tips.

I don't want to have the emphasis on the witers but on their discoveries.

I agree, the educational system is making conform members of society. But the whole way parents raise their children is that. No matter how good a parent may seem, they still act authoritarian when it comes to basic decisions for their child. For example, the parent decides when it's being fed. In the old days, a baby was kept close to the mother's breast and could feed itself whenever it felt hungry. So there are cultural influences that cause human suffering.

One of my favorite writers, Theodore Roszak, wrote in 1968 in The Making of a Counter Culture:

Quote:
If the resistance of the counter culture fails, I think there will be nothing in store for us but what anti-utopians like Huxley and Orwell have forecast - though I have no doubt that these dismal despotisms will be far more stable and effective than their prophets have foreseen. For they will be equipped with techniques of inner-manipulation as unobtrusively fine as gossamer. Above all, the capacity of our emerging technocratic paradise to denature the imagination by appropriating to itself the whole meaning of Reason, Reality, Progress, and Knowledge will render it impossible for men to give any name to their bothersomely unfulfilled potentials but that of madness. And for such madness, humanitarian therapies will be generously provided.


How about this title:
Integrating Childhood with Adulthood
This sounds more like a sub-title. I'll have to think more about it.

Dennis


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 6:52 pm 
I agree it's best to avoid the impression that the forum is about parenting. I still think it looks bad that there are only two entries in the "Post Primal" category after all this time. Has the time come to move them to the "Primal Therapy" category?

I haven't read Theodore Roszak but the title of his book is familiar. Sadly, I think his prediction is correct. The mass media have successfully brainwashed the interchangeable workers in the middle class into believing that trade unions are only for blue collar workers and that they hinder prosperity. Most of the counter culture websites I've visited make the mistake of providing far too much reading material. Advertising agencies and PR companies know that cleverly crafted soundbites and well chosen images make a much bigger impact. Skilled copywriters are very highly paid. I know that Adbusters is an exception, but most other counter culture sites indulge in information overload.

I don't see the situation changing unless an unforseen new trend emerges. Right now there are too many blogs competing for attention. Your blog has blogID=23607239, which means there are more than 23 million Blogger blogs already, not counting all the other free blog providers. The population of New York is approx. 17 million.

Do you participate in the AAaC forum? In what way would you like this one to be different?

ian copeland


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 1:06 am 
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I guess the Post-Primal category isn't working, so I'll move them.

No, I don't participate in the AAaC forum. I get easily overwhelmed by too many postings about people in need of help that relates to former child abuse. But it's a very good and informative site and there are a few of my articles and comments there.

On this forum I like to see a better understanding of the discoveries presented by Janov, Alice Miller, Ellie van Winkle and Jean Liedloff, through discussions and personal stories of childhood experiences that relate to adult behavior. Or anything else that connects to those discoveries. There's a lot of misinterpretations floating around the net and they deserve better.

Theodore Roszak was ahead of his time when he wrote The Making of A Counter Culture. He's a very intelligent and aware person. Here are a few more excerpts from that book:

Quote:
One step further and the counter culture finds itself swamped with cynical or self-deceived opportunists who become, or conveniently let themselves be turned into, spokesmen for youthful disaffiliation. Accordingly, we now have clothing designers, hairdressers, fashion magazine editors, and a veritable phalanx of pop stars who, without a thought in their heads their PR man did not put there, are suddenly expounding "the philosophy of todays's rebellious youth" for the benefit of the Sunday supplements... the feature to be sandwiched between a report on luxury underwear and a full-color spread on the latest undiscovered skin-diving paradise at which to spend that summer of a lifetime. And then, for good reason, the counter culture begins to look like nothing so much as a world-wide publicity stunt. One can easily despair of the possibility that it will survive these twin perils: on the one hand, the weakness of its cultural rapport with the disadvantaged; on the other, its vulnerability to exploitation as an amusing side show of the swinging society.


Quote:
There are manifestations around the fringe of the counter culture that one cannot but regard as worrisomely unhealthy. Elements of pornographic grotesquery and bloodcurdling sadomasochism emerge again and again in the art and theatre of our youth culture and intrude themselves constantly into the underground press. Many of the underground newspapers seem to work on the assumption that talking about anything frankly means talking about it as crudely and as savagely as possible. The supposedly libertarian eroticism of this style betrays a total failure to realize that professional pornography does not challenge, but rather battens off the essential prurience of middle-class sexuality and has a vested interest in maintaining the notion that sex is a dirty thing. What prohibition was to the bootlegger, the puritanical ethos is to the pornographer: both are the entrepreneurs of an oppressive prudishness. Even where such crudity is meant to satirize or reply in kind to the curruptions of the dominant culture, there is bound to come a point where sardonic imitation destroys the sensibilities and produces simple callousness.


Quote:
Perhaps the drug experience bears significant fruit when rooted in the soil of a mature and cultivated mind. But the experience has, all of a sudden, been laid hold of by a generation of youngsters who are pathetically a-cultural and who often bring nothing to the experience but a vacuous yearning. They have, in adolescent rebellion, thrown off the corrupted culture of their elders and, along with that soiled bath water, the very body of the Western heritage - at best, in favour of exotic traditions they only marginally understand; at worst, in favor of an introspective chaos in which the seventeen or eighteen years of their own unformed lives float like atoms in a void.


Quote:
Once conceive of human consciousness in this way, and the inevitable next step is to replace it with a machine just as good ... or better. So we come to the ultimate irony: the machine which is a creature of the human being becomes - most fully in the form of the computerized process - its maker's ideal. The machine achieves the perfect state of objective consciousness and, hence, becomes the standard by which all things are to be gauged. It embodies the myth of objective consciousness as Jesus incarnated the Christian conception of divinity. Under its spell, a grand reductive process begins in which culture is redesigned to meet the needs of mechanization. If we discover that a computer cannot compose emotionally absorbing music, we insist that music does have an "objective" side, and we turn that into our definition of music. If we discover that computers cannot translate normal language, then we invent a special, more rudimentary language which they can translate. If we discover that computers cannot teach as teaching at its most ideal is done, then we redesign education so that the machine can qualify as a teacher. If we discover that computers cannot solve the basic problems of city planning - all of which are questions of social philosophy and aesthetics - then we redefine the meaning of "city", call it an "urban area", and assume that all the problems of this entity are quantative. In this way man is replaced in all areas by the machine, not because the machine can do things "better", but rather because all things have been reduced to what the machine is capable of doing.


Yes, those millions of blogs seem to resemble the 1970's version of 'Kilroy was here', (with a million different names) that was written down everywhere.

Dennis


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 3:21 am 
I don't believe that advocating changes in childbirth/childrearing practices could change anything. Society needs the neurotic suffering and it is based on it. The main economic principles are always the main social principles also. In the whole history there was no society where economic relations were not also the social relations. Authoritarianism, competition and alienation are the basis of this techno industrial system and so it will stay until it is destroyed by revolution, asteroid hit, nuclear war or alien invasion. Doesn't matter how you were born or raised; sooner or later you'll accept the main "values" and social relations, follow them and live by them, you will perpetuate the system which inflicts so much pain. You will simply become a cog in the machine and your personal convictions will be utterly unimportant. I agree that a basis of character is formed in the early age, but even the healthiest and happiest person can and will be used as a tool for inflicting a psychological damage on others, especially young people. Why? Because you simply HAVE TO yell at children, spank them, punish them in thousands of ways because oherwise they will just refuse to waste their youth studying school subjects most of them hate, and they won't accept suffering in all those sickly institutions as the only way of living. It is necessary fot them to "respect" authority and to be afraid of it, to supress their "fight and flight instinct", and to give up fighting for control over their own lives. Let's face it, a natural truly healthy being will never work in the factory or reduce his/hers life to saving and investing money. But techno industrial system needs slaves because slavery is it's essence. Preparing human beings for such slavery is usually started as early as possible and there is no reason for society to change that. It needs the workforce.

Hunter gatherer existence was the longest and the most sucessful human adaptation to this world, and the only natural one. True equality, freedom, solidarity, peace, enough leasure time, meaningful activities, are only possible in this type of existence. The only alternative to suffering is return to nature and autonomous, small group self sufficient society.


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