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Childhood trauma and its consequences
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 2:48 pm 
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Guest, unlike you I don't reject the person but the abuse. You on the other hand make assumptions about me instead of making your own. You don't bring anything of yourself into a discussion. I'm not struggling with Cesar. He has brought a lot of valid issues into this and Daniel's Forum. He SPEAKS OUT. If you have had a childhood where speaking out was answered by punishment and threats, then this can evoke feelings of fear. This is not a therapeutic forum, but an informative one, with the biggest priority in changing the view on child abuse as the media present it. Correcting falsehoods and replacing them with accurate information. That's why I discussed Loftus and the False Memory Syndrome Foundation, with Cesar as a representative of the 'other opinion'. In 1996 I wrote an article about FMS, after 3 months of extensive research, read thousands of pages, and I think it's important that this kind of fascism needs to be exposed. This is however not my day job. I spend not more than about 1 hour each day on these sort of topics that are being discussed.

Now, if you disagree, come with arguments, and do not use phrases to throw sand in the eyes of the readers.

And ignoring bullies is one tactic. History has proven that such a tactic is not always successful. At best they will just get their stuff and bully somewhere else, the problem still exists. It's up to everyone's abilities to do what you feel you have to do.

Karin, I'll respond to your post later...

Reverend Dennis :twisted:

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 12:10 pm 
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Guest wrote: You are preaching to Karin, although she seems to accept it.

Thank you for saying this. Oh, I was afraid I was rude back to Dennis!!?? (And I see no reason why you should bring in yourself in this special question as Dennis wrote?) I grew up in a middle-class family and probably didn’t learn to tell others truths (because of what? Of respect for others? Despite I probably wasn’t respected always myself, but I should be respectful towards others nevertheless? Or at least try to be respectful? And not embarrass other with telling truths? I.e. what I thought about their behavior, or even see how I was treated actually? And least of all embarrass a man, by "dressing him off"??)?? The sad thing is that I am probably still blind to others abusive behaviors, don’t really rely on my senses? Someone thought I should trust them more… Not least in a positive sense? Seeing the positive things in myself? This person (a man, well educated, if tat says anything, at all, less well educated can b as sensitive!!?? And maybe sometimes more?) thought I was both easy to like and colorful (not beautiful in traditional sense though?)… A woman from another forum thought I was a delightful being or how she wrote, despite I expressed myself in English and not my own language (she was British) I think.

And both colleagues, pupils and parents have shown appreciation of what I do and the person I am…

But when I wrote the former posting I was about to write: “But wasn’t it me that was the teacher here!!??” I am afraid of being lecturing myself (I don’t know how successful I am in this, though).
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Dennis wrote: Karin, I'll respond to your post later...

Going against the well-manneredness I was learned/taught very early (??), I don’t know if I shall see this as a promise or as a threat actually, Dennis!!?

Karin

PS. And Dennis, aren't you ascribing guest something that isn't true? That he/she is rejecting because he/she points something out?? And I saw that I had written ones when it should be once?? No, I don't have unlimited time to write...But it felt as if I wanted to write a reply...


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 4:57 pm 
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Abuse is not a disease. Abusive men are not only abusive because of abusive fathers. This kind of misconception is why there are still so many abusive men in abusive relationships. When a mother is treated abusive by her husband, there's only one option: she leaves immediately. Of course before this woman decides to marry the man, there are already indications of abusive behavior, that are swept under the carpet or rationalized or simply not recognized as abuse because during the childhood this behavior was taught normal.

If the mother doesn't leave, she's equally responsible for the abuse perpetrated on the kids by the father. But when society is talking about abuse, they usually refer to physical abuse. There's also punishment, isolation, humiliation, abstinence of love as a punishment, insulting, etc.

If one of the two parents (or both) respect the needs of their children, then this child will be protected against abuse and will never have the need to go fight wars.

Abusive women usually come with the argument that it's hard to leave and that they have no where to go. In our time there are so many more options to immediately leave. My mother's grandmother, and we're talking around 1900 now, came home one evening and saw her children sexually being abused by her husband. She took the children and left that same evening and never returned. She did what every good mother should have done: protect the children from the perpetrators and from abuse. If anyone rejects any abusive remark or act right from the start in a relationship, abuse will never flourish.

Karin wrote:
But no matter how harmed one was one that doesn’t excuse abuse.


Where do I excuse abuse? Please quote me where I do that. Or do you refer to Cesar's abusive remarks? Cesar never abused any person directly on this forum, that I'm aware of. And at this forum, you can simply ignore a person's post if it evokes strong feelings. No one is forcing you to listen to him, unlike a parent scolding his or her child. It comes down to the Fight, Flight or Freeze reaction. But even if a person doesn't feel strong enough to fight a possible abusive remark, they can PM me and ask me for help.

Karin wrote:
You can’t blame your childhood or early history!?


Why not? What's so threatening of blaming your childhood? Isn't it typical for abusive people that they IDEALIZE their childhood instead of blaming it?

Karin wrote:
we all can apologize


And then what? Feelings that are instilled in children don't disappear when there's an apology. It's another subtle act of 'poisonous pedagogy' to tell a person: don't you rebel or fight against the abuse because your parent has apologized. An apology covers up abuse.

I could write a lot about my oldest sister because we have the same parents but to see her as ONLY a victim in an abusive marriage is what these misconceptions are about. This doesn't mean that she deserved any of that abuse, on the contrary! It happens often that someone who is abused starts with one parent but still idealizes the other (often the mother), because the child had to turn to at least one of the parents to survive, if there was no other. And this realization is very hard and why abusive relationships just continue into other relationships. After the divorce, my sister was almost immediately involved with another abusive man (shortly though).

Preachers don't engage into dialogues so to call me a preacher without adding anything yourself into a debate is pointing fingers at others.

Karin wrote:
Thank you for telling me. Of course I didn’t know that!! Blindly and not hearing, seeing, sensing through 30 years working with people I haven’t understood this at all!! I had not the faintest idea about this. Tragically I haven’t understood anything at all. Am incapable of learning! Not flexible at all!! I have always had difficulties understanding and learning! And I am definitely unable of “understanding” others!!


No need to become sarcastic here. I'm just saying that people here at the forum and other forums are very quickly judging others and making remarks on others, instead of reacting to what is being written.

Dennis wrote:
Dennis, aren't you ascribing guest something that isn't true? That he/she is rejecting because he/she points something out??


Guest rejects everything of Cesar and doesn't want to see him around. To me that is rejecting the whole person, instead of rejecting possible abusive elements.

Guest is welcome to come back, but he has to register himself now. Registration (of an email address) is now obligatory if you want to post anything because it's manipulative to keep posting under a variety of other names.

Dennis

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 11:10 pm 
No, I don’t think that abuse sits in the genes.

And hey Dennis, do you actually mean what you are writing?? That it’s the victims fault she (he) is abused?? And do you actually mean as you write
Quote:
If anyone rejects any abusive remark or act right from the start in a relationship, abuse will never flourish.

If you think so it’s horrible.

So if a person (man or woman) is abused in a relation it’s their own fault because they should have seen the signs on beforehand?

And who judges what the “right” behavior is either? So if I behave in the “wrong” way in another person’s eyes he/she is allowed to treat me as he/she wants. It’s my own fault I am badly treated? Or what do you mean?

Yes, you are allowed to protect yourself whether you are a woman or a man in a relation, but that you are abused doesn’t excuse abuse back. Resulting in a vendetta!!

Dennis wrote: Why not? What's so threatening of blaming your childhood? Isn't it typical for abusive people that they IDEALIZE their childhood instead of blaming it?

So you mean an abuser, serial killer etc. can excuse his behavior with his bad childhood?

The sad thing is that some people are probably so harmed that they get paralysed in a bad relation, and probably more paralysed the worse the relation is. But from a child’s point of view this is no excuse!!!

That the mother is incapable of protecting her children and leave a relation doesn’t free the man from what he does!! He still has responsibility for his own actions, what he says, how he behaves, how little the environment didn’t hinder him. And the opposite is of course true. But a child has all rights to blame not only his/her mother for her inability to protect her/him or leave, as he/she has all rights to blame her/his father for what he did.

And there are also men that ought to protect their children from abusive mothers… The other side of the coin.

The gist of this is that grown up people have responsibility for their own behavior, including protecting weaker, but even if the environment is totally incapable of intervene this doesn’t free the abuser/perpetrator from any responsibility at all for what he (or she) does, how harmed he/she even might have been early in life.

In fact I tried to write a summary of my friends posting recently (the one I linked to, which was in Swedish):
Quote:
A Swedish woman, Katrin Kielos, has written a summary * of a lecture held by a Katrin Himmler in Uppsala recently. Katrin Himmlers grandfather was brother to Heinrich Himmler.
Anja (my friend) is referring to this summary.
In this Kielos writes that the psyches of the SS-men have been studied by psychologists. And these studies shows that these men get high scores concerning authoritarian tendencies **; a general cynicism, a feeling that the world is evil (which Anja thinks can be used as an alibi to be evil oneself, “eat or be eaten”-arguments), identification with the power and a resistance towards human softness and weakness.
But Kielos draws conclusions that these tendencies laid there slumbering in the personality and wouldn’t have come to expression if the spirit of the age hadn’t allowed it (in the character in some or the genes or something as so many want to believe). Anja doesn’t agree with this. She thinks that human beings have always found ways of expressing their personality and of giving vent to their needs of oppression/oppressing. She thinks a special permission isn’t necessary for this. She rather thinks that we have become well too blind to the evilness in everyday life (but I think societal approval of abuse can lift the lid, to these slumbering things, but still this approval doesn’t excuse abuse).
But of course the men who had the ideas about this project – the Holocaust, to kill all Jews (and others not desired) – had great use of a certain sort of people, and without this sort of people this project wouldn’t have been able to perform.
The problem with the notion that ”the society sanctions evilness” is that this frees the perpetrators from (any) responsibility and gives the responsibility to the people who didn’t act. A classical manoeuvre. The one that has acted wrongly can with a thesis like this in his (her) back always ask
“Why didn’t anyone hinder me from committing those inhuman crimes?”
Another problem with this thesis is that one makes an assumption about the silent mass’s obvious goodness. Where does one get this from? If the big mass in Germany, let’s say 75% of the population, in fact thought it was RIGHT to kill the Jewish part of the population, their neighbours and co-workers, how can one then see this mass as good? Isn’t it a big difference if one is a viewer/bystander to what’s happening because you agree, or if you are a bystander/viewer because you belong to a minority and you are scared to death?
Isn’t it a big difference for how we see the world, and on a, supposed, “innate evilness which can lie slumbering in us ALL” which comes to expression when the environment sanctions this? Blaming that, instead of taking responsibility?? Hiding behind this explanation??
Kielos sees it as a mystery that “ordinary people commits wholesale murders", but think if evil people in fact are common?? We would want that good people were the most common, but think if the world doesn’t looks like that? If evil people, who in fact CAN hurt others very badly, deliberately, in cold blood, are common, how shall we then view the world? (but I know Anja, and I think she means that this evilness is taught).
During the homicide in Rwanda almost all ordinary people joined the murdering. But all didn’t join. All couldn’t just go from being ”ordinary people” to effective and cold-blooded murderers. And isn’t it more interesting to emphasize this – that ALL in fact aren’t capable of hurting their fellow human being – than nagging about “the mystery about evilness” as if we can’t do anything about the evilness, as if it was a natural law, a law saying that we all can have this evilness in us. Couldn’t we welcome the fact instead that there are people who succeed in resisting the environments sanctions of sadistic behavior and in spite of this don’t revert to cruelness themselves?
Couldn’t we assume that we ALL can become as these persons, that goodness and integrity in fact is slumbering in us all??

Anja refers to another woman touching this topic too she thinks, and if she interprets her right she says that:
“The notion/idea that injustices are maintained through ‘unconsciousness’ I see as a typical cowardly resort for liberals (and for many other bullies)…”
And the oppression of women is a consequence of thousand years of old thinking in which women ARE less worth, and thus deserves their lot in life - and deserves their destiny and the treatment they are exposed to.
Seen in its historical perspective neither massacres of whole populations nor oppression of women are mysterious.


My addition: But there are also differences on the crimes that are committed and to whom they are committed!?? Some are worse than others… And the relation (not least seen to power) also contributes to how big or little harm that is done…
But I think it is true that societal approval can be dangerous, too… And lift lids... But crimes or abuse are not excused with that you yourself have been abused, neither as a child nor as grown up??

So neither maternal NOR paternal abuse we were exposed to is an excuse for our (whether we are women or men) abuse of neither children (own or others) nor other adults (lovers, friends, coworkers, colleagues, employees etc.)...

And, yes, men are bullied to!!! By not only other men, but also by women. And of course that's wrong, independently of how much or little that man (or woman) is capable of protecting him (her)self properly!!!

Yes, are we allowed to behave badly towards "weak" people?? Does it matter if the other part is "strong" or "weak"? Of what reason that person is "strong" or "weak"?? Yes, that about contempt for weakness!!?? To which the "weak" sex belongs too??

What is this contempt about? A contempt seen as justification for (in the "best" cases) lecturing the weak, unknowing, a permission to teach her/him (in general or to teach her/him a lesson), or in the worst cases for the most heinous abuse (in the worst cases to murders). You are "allowed"(are you? Who have given you that permission?) to pour contempt, including everything ranging from irritation to anger, over the "weak" (contempt for what actually)?

Justification for contemptuous behavior - and lack of respect and sensitivity in different degrees (or lack of "understanding").

** High-scoring when it came to authoritarian tendencies as:
• Enclosing conventional bourgeois values
• Uncritical attitude towards authorities
• A wish to punish persons breaking conventional values
• Resistance to subjectivity and imaginativeness [being alive, living, feeling, sensing etc.]
• Belief in the destiny’s predestination
• A belief on the world as a dangerous place
• Identification with the power
• A general cynicism
And of course it is different if people in equal positions and with equal power abuse the other, each others and if a child is abused by a grown up!!! And also if a person with more power misuses his/her power in a power-imbalance relation.
And if I had had children and realize that I had done this and that to my own kids I would be furious and I don’t know what… Yes, I could try to apologize about it (and do it with honesty) and admit to what I have done… But unfortunately my kid probably should have to go through a process of processing this nevertheless! And maybe I could also get a slap in my face from my kid??? Because he/she is so harmed.
Karin


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 12:23 am 
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I wrote in my previous post: 'This doesn't mean that she deserved any of that abuse, on the contrary!', so don't turn my words around saying that I condone abuse and it's the victim's fault.

Many adults that were abused as a child by the father, need to idealize the mother in order to survive. A very insightful book on this topic is Susan Forward's 'The Men That Hate Women and the Women who Love Them'.

Karin wrote:
Yes, you are allowed to protect yourself whether you are a woman or a man in a relation, but that you are abused doesn’t excuse abuse back.


Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but where do you get the idea that I say that abuse is good, that it can be excused?

Karin wrote:
So you mean an abuser, serial killer etc. can excuse his behavior with his bad childhood?


No, I say that a murderer (for example) who doesn't BLAME his childhood but IDEALIZES it, seeks after weaker persons to act out the abuse he (or she) has suffered as a child. If this person was allowed to blame his childhood, blame his parents and feel (not act out) the righteous anger towards his parents, he wouldn't feel the need to destroy innocent lives of others. That's part of what Alice Miller describes in her books, so it shouldn't come to you as a total surprise.

What I think as another very important factor in a person's life, is how he was treated in school. If a child is being abused or neglected at home and at school, then the anger has to turn to society or himself. Because he is not allowed to direct his anger to his parents or the head of the school. He's being manipulated that way so these authorities cannot be blamed. This explains why some of these young people start shooting at their classmates and teachers. And in all of these cases the signs for help were present for a long time prior to such act of violence and murder. Also in this movie, Richard is not being heard when he asks for help. Remove all the choices or options this kid had, and he is being driven into a very small corner.

Quote:
Couldn’t we assume that we ALL can become as these persons, that goodness and integrity in fact is slumbering in us all??


The Milgram Experiment has shown that 'ordinary' people turned into sadistic torturers when authoritarian persuasion was nearby. Fear for authorities is what's common in everyone's life because it's part of growing up. Even the best parents in the world need to make decisions in the interest for the child without the ability that the child can critically evaluate this (because of it being too young). That's why it's only healthy when teenagers start to oppose their parents and their teachers, if they feel they are being mistreated. A friend of mine said that he's very distrustful of parents whose children are their best friends because they will never have any doubt of any early wrongdoings.

If you want to continue this discussion (if it is one), then I suggest you start a new thread.

Dennis

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 10:53 am 
Dennis,

Yes, I think you have been lecturing me, telling me things as if I haven’t seen, heard, sensed or understood anything from soon 31 years in the school’s world. As if I haven’t seen, heard, sensed anything from the children I have had around me in my private-life either (I have probably both seen and not seen things there). As if I am so dull too (as if the dull arent' allowed to speak up either or?) so I haven’t understood anything from what I have read, digested, processed?

And it also struck me when I read your lat reply about teens reacting and acting out that I have a sister working as skolkurator (it doesn’t seem to be a proper translation for this to English) since some months and I have a bit insight from that point too. How big problems there are. And what she struggles with, really concerned about those kids and young people!!!

This sister is educated from college for social workers and has worked in both child- and adult-psychiatry, as social workers, with unemployed etc. She is one year older than you, so she has worked many years now in fact.

And I have been working with young people for over 30 years, met them one by one, in groups of different sizes and also in classes… If I should be so totally insensitive, it would be... I don't know...

If I shouldn’t have noticed anything, not understood anything, not thought of or wondered about anything during all those years it would be horrible!!! If I am so totally insensitive! (maybe I AM???)

I have worked with grown ups too, as side-work, not only with music, but at hospital with patients, as secretary at hospital too during the time I studied as summer-work. I have siblings with husbands working with many different things (in really different areas) and have heard about their troubles, wondered about things there too etc.

I really hope I am not as numb as you seem to think?? And that I need to be lectured in the way as you have done. Telling me things as if I hadn’t understood anything?

And once again, I probably have blind spots too as so many?? I am no perfect person or angel?? But I have worked hard all those years and tried to develop not only in work-things but not least personally, and I don’t want to hurt anyone, and I certainly react at things in school (and definitely not only there) and wonder over things both here and there, and how I shall be able to do anything in the benefit of the ones I work with (but I probably have the most socially adapted, that’s for true. But I think there are problems with those children, of other sorts).

Yes, I think you have been preaching and lecturing me! As if I am all bad teachers in one? Or, I don’t know how to express this.

In fact I think you have behaved like a real BULLY towards me here, and for a while!

Karin


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 1:31 pm 
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Karin, you're projecting your insecurity onto me. You are really twisting my words, which I find abusive and manipulative. You avoid discussions and beat around the bush with bringing in all kinds of irrelevant topics, distractions and sarcastic remarks.

Karin wrote:
This sister is educated from college for social workers and has worked in both child- and adult-psychiatry, as social workers, with unemployed etc. She is one year older than you, so she has worked many years now in fact.


What has this do to with anything? Since you have a blog on Alice Miller, let me quote what she says about this:

'The higher social classes dispose of more defense possibilities against the trauma thanks to schooling and often one sided intellectual development, and that yet the defense of the trauma (for example repression, aversion of the feeling against the memory, denial with help of idealism) causes the neuroses.'

Karin wrote:
I am no perfect person or angel?? But I have worked hard all those years and tried to develop not only in work-things but not least personally, and I don’t want to hurt anyone, and I certainly react at things in school (and definitely not only there) and wonder over things both here and there, and how I shall be able to do anything in the benefit of the ones I work with (but I probably have the most socially adapted, that’s for true. But I think there are problems with those children, of other sorts).


Again (and I realize I'm just repeating myself here), where do I write anything that contradicts this?

Karin wrote:
In fact I think you have behaved like a real BULLY towards me here, and for a while!


That's your perception of course, but there's also the chance that what you read, is someone else's voice. But again, you avoid any kind of discussion about this.

Dennis

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