Religious backlash against Science

Plenty of stuff to discuss in the world, with the focus on causes
Mojo

Post by Mojo »

Yes, Pigliucci's "Fundamentalism and science" is impressively well reasoned. I read Damasio's "Descartes Error" quite a few years ago. I feel sure his subsequent books would make intersting reading too.
If you like, I can scan and send to you.
Thank you for the kind offer. I'll wait until it appears on the website. I've made a note of the title. So many articles. So little time.
I also see that most of the kids I know are choosing this path. Sadly, I don't think they see alternatives.
I think they are being led by the nose by the Big Pharma marketing machine. It's ironic when you think how much taxpayers money was spent on the "Just Say No" campaign. Let's not let adults off the hook. I found an article on the BBC website expressing dismay at the sharp rise in Ritalin prescriptions for children with ADHD: The importance of not being earnest.

* Mojo *

Shelley

Post by Shelley »

It's ironic when you think how much tax ... campaign.

Yes, it is. In fact, I know several kids who came home after school wearing their "Just Say No" ribbons and then took their dose of Ritalin. Insanity!

Shelley

User avatar
Dennis
Site Admin
Posts: 250
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 2:06 am
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Post by Dennis »

Mojo, the article you refer to - though interesting - is from 1998. Since then it has become increasingly popular to diagnose children with ADHD and have them on Ritalin or Adderall, both amphetamines. There's a lot written on ADHD, myself not excluded, and still all the evidence points to that ADHD is a made-up invention to sell Ritalin and such. But it doesn't stop it, on the contrary, even 2-year-old toddlers are on Ritalin now. There's a recent article at the Scotsman.com, that sums it up pretty good.

Is parents' guilt stronger than evidence?

Dennis

Mojo

Post by Mojo »

An excellent article! It's interesting that within the USA media coverage of these issues is quite often (but not always) influenced by Big Pharma press releases, while elsewhere in the world media coverage appears less biased. I believe parenting classes in highschools in every country would go a long way in reducing the number of children who end up with behavioral problems, and also the consequent guilt feelings among parents. In just one generation it would slash the costs to society of treating these avoidable problems. But some types of problem may be due to hospital birthing procedures and the side effects of vaccines. Again, natural birthing and safer vaccines would reduce the number of tragic outcomes. Prevention is better than cure.

Do these last few replies belong in a new topic? -- Brain Medications.

* Mojo *

Phil
Posts: 46
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2005 4:31 am

Post by Phil »

I think ADHD is a real condition but it gets treated for educational rather than medical needs. This is what for me makes this treatment questionable. I think the causes of this condition may be primal pain and I have read the association somewhere. Yes, what we need are better parents.

I am trying to make a career transition to teaching. As a part of this I am taking a class in special education. It is interesting that in the special education field it is well known that early life events, especially birth and the prenatal phase, are associated with many kinds of disabilities.

Yet in education behaviorism seems to be the standard answer to deal with psychological and social problems. The idea is to remove a student's negative behavior and teach him or her a positive behavior. The textbooks on education mostly all deny that early life events are relevent in the area of pychology. If I successfully become a teacher I have no desire to use behaviorist techniques. It is frustrating to have to study them. There must be better ways. I hope to be able to relate to my students as people, not robots. I wouldn't want one of my own children to be medicated with Ritilin.

User avatar
Dennis
Site Admin
Posts: 250
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 2:06 am
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Post by Dennis »

Phil, as you probably know, you're not alone in your belief that ADHD is a a real condition. There has been many discussions and debates on that, often with emotions running high. But a child (or adult) diagnosed with ADHD doesn't mean he/she doesn't have any problems. We all know hyperactive children. But those children don't experience that as something unhealthy. They can feel miserable towards the reactions to them but not the 'condition' on itself. My girlfriend's nephew is hyperactive but he has parents that never made a problem of that. And now at the age of 15 he's actually much calmer.

It's interesting that you want to become a teacher and think about a way to reach the students. In my opinion kids (and adults) can only learn something when they are motivated. A good teacher only needs to motivate his students. There's a fantastic school in Holland where they let kids teach things when they choose themselves, a bit like the Summerhill School.

When I went to High School (in Holland), we had parenting classes. But no one paid much attention because kids that age have other things on their mind than parenting. What would be much better is to send every parent a few hours a week to school, where they are being taught how to parent well. And if they don't show up, they don't receive child benifits or risk some kind of obligatory community work. Of course you won't win elections with such a proposal.

For what's it worth, I've written 3 articles about ADHD, which you can find here, here and here. The last one is about a huge scientific scandal that took place in 2004/2005 in Sweden.

Unfortunately the media in Europe isn't so different than in the US. The pharmaceutical industry has a lot of power worldwide and they simply tell the media people not to go with anti-pharmaceutical items or they will pull back as an advertiser, which can result in such a drop of income that it jeopardizes the jobs of the people working there. So only independent media is not afraid to expose it.

I did write to a large Swedish paper once, that had such a one-sided positive article about ADHD and medicine. The pharmaceutical press release was written all over it. I translated my letters and their response in English, here. Weeks after that, the paper had another journalist writing about ADHD in a much better way, looking at some of the behavioral causes and alternative treatments.

Dennis

Mojo

Post by Mojo »

Phil:

Making a career transition is a bold and courageous step to take for anyone already established in a career path they had to train for previously. The teaching profession sorely needs more people who are aware of primal influences on personality development.

Yes, it's interesting that there's more awareness in the special education field. I wonder why it hasn't percolated through to the regular teacher training curriculum. Educational behaviorism epitomizes what Lloyd DeMause calls the 'socializing mode' of childrearing. For the future peace and stability of the human race the time is long overdue for a switch to 'helping mode' childrearing. I hope you will be allowed the freedom to offer a 'helping mode' influence to the students in your care.

Have you been influenced by A.S. Neill's Summerhill or John Taylor Gatto's ideas along the way?

Dennis:
When I went to High School (in Holland), we had parenting classes. But no one paid much attention because kids that age have other things on their mind than parenting.
Like you said to Phil, kids only learn something when they are motivated by a good teacher. Maybe your teacher(s) didn't teach parenting classes in an inspirational way. Then there is the question "What is the right age for parenting classes?" Should it be before puberty, when young kids are keenly aware of how they are being treated by their own parents? Or should it be after puberty when teenagers are thinking about sexual relationships and looking forward to independence from their parents? I don't know the answer, and I don't know whether research has been done into this question.

Parenting classes for parents are a good idea too, but I agree that it would be very unpopular if coercion was used to force attendance. The advertising industry knows lots of clever ways to influence people. How about making attendance into a status symbol by honoring parents who attend with diplomas at a public ceremony?

The reaction you got from the Swedish newspaper is disappointing. Do national newspapers in Europe really depend on advertising revenue from pharmaceutical companies? Or is it just laziness on the part of reporters that they recycle Big Pharma releases? You said a more balanced article appeared a few weeks later. The article in The Scotsman was bold. And then there's the BBC which is paid for by license fees instead of advertising.

* Mojo *

User avatar
Dennis
Site Admin
Posts: 250
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 2:06 am
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Post by Dennis »

In my opinion kids shouldn't have to worry about parenting. They should be kids and enjoy those things kids do. Shifting the responsibilities from the parents to the kids is not a good method. Most parents want kids and they want good relationships with their kids. An obligatory course would do a lot of good. Maybe the government just needs to set this up in one town as an experiment.

The problem with the pharmaceutical industry as advertiser/sponsor is that they have so much more under their sleeve, owning many other companies, ranging from food, electronics, anything. They are bigger than the oil industry and they have billions to spend. It's also the subtle manipulations, like sponsoring a golf-tournement so you get the targeted executives happy. Or they organize 'conventions' in exotic countries fully paid for. And yes, journalists who have to make a living out of their writing, are under pressure with writing down something. A starting copywriter once told me he was seriously annoyed getting nearly identical articles from 2 journalists, that apparently just had 'copied' a press-release. Also papers are not willing to pay for long-term investigative articles, because fast news sells better for the majority.

There aren't many papers or magazines out there without ads. The only one I know is Adbusters.

Regarding TV, in Sweden there are 2 commercial-free, state-owned channels and 3 commercial ones. They have of course a big difference in programming and I've to say that the commercial-free ones do have an interesting and fair selection.

By the way, I didn't say kids only learn something when they are motivated by a good teacher. I said: ...can only learn something when they are motivated. Motivation usually comes from within yourself. But it can help when other people, for example teachers, know how to motivate you.

Dennis

Phil
Posts: 46
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2005 4:31 am

Post by Phil »

"Making a career transition is a bold and courageous step to take for anyone already established in a career path they had to train for previously".

To Mojo,

Thanks for saying this. I am making a career change out of neccisity but am choosing teaching because I want something more people oriented than what I was doing. It will be challenging for me since I am not a natural. I think primalling is going to help me more than teacher training.

"Have you been influenced by A.S. Neill's Summerhill or John Taylor Gatto's ideas along the way?"

I am interested in alternative schools. There are teachers I see who have styles I admire. These are ones who have a good emotional presence and make good connections with all the students. They are caring and avoid being harsh. They do this even though they have been trained in behaviorism. So this is the type of teacher I would like to become. One that remembers the students who suffer in school and have a lot of problems.

To Dennis,

I think we are using Ritilin to force kids to fit into school. That just should not be the case. It is unnatural for a kid to sit around quietly all day in school. It is very difficult to deal with hyperactive kids in a traditional school setting. Attention deficit directly effects their ability to learn.
But I think there are ways to deal with these things. Public schools should look at all the alternatives available. Yes, motivating all the students is the important goal.
I am interested to read what you wrote in your articles but haven't had the chance to read them yet.

Phil

Phil
Posts: 46
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2005 4:31 am

Post by Phil »

Ritilin and the other drugs for ADHD are effective in enhancing the education of those children effected by this condition. Teachers seem to know this very well. But I do agree that this is not enough reason to medicate them.
I feel sure that primalling could help a lot of these kids. Too bad primalling isn't a big money making business like pharmaceuticals.
It could be.

It is interesting for me that my primalling has effected my attention or awareness. A problem for me has been over or hyper awareness and anxiety. Reducing this has had a positive effect. It was one of the symptoms that I didn't really know was going on.
Having to do with waiting seemingly forever for my mother to take care of my needs (and other early related issues). So for me, having a little more "attention deficit" has been a good thing and a relief.

Mojo

Post by Mojo »

What has happened to America? How come there are so many unfeeling people who believe the forced drugging of school children is acceptable? Twenty years -- no -- not even fifty years of primalling can be called a success for someone who believes that drugging children to force them to conform to a school system that's long overdue for an overhaul is something that can be justified. I guess unfeeling people just go along with whatever the authorities tell them -- even if they know it's morally and ethically wrong. Feeling people would campaign against it. The American public school system is not the envy of world. We're in the 21st century, and yet some states are considering replacing classes about the scientific basis for evolution with the non-science of 'Intelligent Design'.

* Mojo *

Guest

Post by Guest »

Keep quiet about the non-scientist with the belligerent attitude against religion - Daniel Dennett - and you might make some headway in Ohio. Let the religios teach *Intelligent Design* in theology classes. I agree that evolutionary psychology doesnt belong in science classes either -- it should be taught as a branch philosophy.

Intelligent design? Whats so intelligent about designing a war-mongering, genocidal naked ape? Maybe Satan was in charge at the time.

Possibly it was Desmond Morris who started the evolutionary psychology ball rolling. Nevertheless, he made some shrewd observations in The Human Zoo

Bernard
Posts: 0
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 10:52 am

Post by Bernard »

Satan did well, didn't he? Some humanoids are so morally and ethically degenerate all they're fit for is to take employment in pharmaceutical company marketing departments. :wink:

Or looking at it from an evolutionary point of view.... What went wrong to lead to such a high proportion of humans taking legal drugs for psychiatric problems and mood disorders in the 21st century?

That article you linked to has a good synopsis of Jared Diamond's books. I've read several of his articles on the Discover magazine website. Zoologists are probably right to say we evolved to function best in small, close-knit tribal groups. I can't think of a better explanation. Psychologists are not in the same league though. They come up with unprovable evolutionary theories for behaviors which could just as easily be explained by cultural influences. They're not too bright really.

Who are you, 'guest'?
Bernard

Guest

Post by Guest »

I dont want to give my name because I no longer believe social problems can be solved by peddling therapy method A, or therapy method B. I spent years tackling my neurosis by following painful feelings back to their roots. The end result was complete disillusionment with the way modern society is structured and organized. Most members of the middle class are salary slaves if they care to be honest with themselves. Who can afford to be a whistle blower about corporate corruption if they dont have independent wealth? The same for misguided policies in state organizations. Busy moms and dads with full time careers put their kids in daycare when the kids are still at an emotionally vulnerable age. Stressed moms and dads dump negativity on their kids without even realizing what they are doing. Everything Art Janov said about society in The Primal Revolution is still true, but primal therapy cannot save the world. Do you have any idea how many children are born each hour of the day? The birth rate exceeds the death rate by a margin that would eclipse all the patients who ever paid for therapy with the Janovs since 1970 - IN JUST TWO HOURS. Nobody can insulate themselves from the consequences of environmental destruction and resource depletion by becoming post-primal.

John
Posts: 22
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 3:55 am

Post by John »

I was reading Guest's post as well as many thoughts in this thread from some time ago, and it's pretty clear that there are no big differences of opinion on how dire things are...how distanced people have become from themselves. It's really odd to watch Latin America go up in flames too...in my quiet ride on the new billion dollar subway line in Santiago, one day to the next, about 10 new flat screen TVs blaring away have been installed....in each car. Stunning. At first I was honestly outraged. People think it's "great". I began to share Guest's feeling, but I don't plan to go in that direction. I'm making a committment to not do that.

Primal Therapy is not going to save the world, in fact everyone is going to die. It's part of life. I know that I CAN have a great quality of life if I get the pain out....and become as mentally healthy as possible. Even if the environment is damaged, and even if there are powerful negative consequences involved in the craziness unfolding.

In my travel to work...which now includes these flat screen TVs ( I used to write) I have to adjust. I can do it. Because I'm worth it.

And that might rub off on people around me...which to me is enough. It's a holiday weekend this weekend, the sun in shining and I'm planning to climb up to 7,500 feet on Sunday. It's really quiet up there. The mountains don't seem to give a damn what is going on down in the city. A few weeks ago I saw a condor with a wingspan of 2 meters.

Those mountains are vast. I think he'll be saved from the crazy expansion and environmental damage caused by the way Santiago is being managed.

John

Locked