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Author:  searching_23 [ Tue Nov 22, 2005 12:54 pm ]
Post subject:  primal-box

does anyone know where one can buy a primal-box from?ie: a totally soundproof box for use in primal therapy.

Author:  Dennis [ Tue Nov 22, 2005 12:55 pm ]
Post subject: 

To me the primal box is abusive and counter-productive. A person feels the need to scream out his or her pain but at the same time wants it regulated and muffled. Do we put screaming children also in boxes? It's been discussed before and some people claim not to want to upset any neighbor who might call the police. Why not scream into a pillow then? Why not go to a hard rock concert and scream your lungs out?

Go with the feeling that makes you desire such box in the first place and see what comes up. And Primal Therapy is not Primal Scream Therapy. There's actually very little screaming involved.


Author:  searching_23 [ Tue Nov 22, 2005 12:56 pm ]
Post subject:  to dennis

to dennis,
no i don't think a primal-box is counter productive!?
the point is if you need to deal with whatever feelings and you need some privacy it is to me the best option 'cos you aren't going to disturb the neighbours.if the box is big enough and has a fan and light so you can breathe then you don't have to choke on the feelings which is exactly what babies and children are forced to do.
i know primal therapy isn't all about screaming....:)

yeah i could go to a rock concert and scream my head off but then i'd be getting caught up in their feelings which is kind of abreaction....

it's a physical thing as well a need to punch and kick and beat up on something..i guess boxing gloves and a punchbag would be a good thing..

or i could just go listen to nirvana.lol.:)

Author:  Phil [ Tue Nov 22, 2005 12:57 pm ]
Post subject: 

I think it is a must for primal therapy to have a place to primal that is
private. The thought of unintended listeners has an inhibitory effect on primalling. The primaller might not even be aware of the inhibition. So this is a standard requirement.

I can't even feel free to primal when my own wife and kids are around
to be able to listen. I wouldn't want this to be a focus of a primal session and why should they have to listen to it. However, if the listeners are also primallers, then it is a positive effect for me.

There aren't any ready made primal boxes for sale that I know of. A shed that is sold as a kit which is put together could do, with added sound proofing. It can be put together in your home. Also there is an article around which showed how to build one. It may be on the primal page.

I have found cars to be good places to primal in a pinch. Just need a good private place to park.

I use my house since the neigboring houses are far enough away.

Author:  Dennis [ Tue Nov 22, 2005 12:58 pm ]
Post subject: 

What do you think is the need to scream? Children scream when they are in danger or pain and they need help. By screaming they increase the chance to be heard and helped. What would the function of screaming in a box be for adults in relation to primal? Is it a cry for help? And isn't the unfulfilled need of being helped as a child the core issue?

But a screaming child can be unheard or even punished. In that way, you repeat the trauma of being unheard (being in a box) and is according to me counter-productive.

Being at a rock concert screaming your lungs out can be a way to get some old frustrations out. Abreaction or not, if you scream while thinking about your mom or dad or any other abuser, then that's primaling. Even though your environment wouldn't know that.


Author:  Phil [ Tue Nov 22, 2005 12:59 pm ]
Post subject: 

Hi Dennis,

I think that most primallers are not able to primal in public,
it is a distraction and will prevent feelings from coming out.
And that is different from having someone specifically listening
in, which is usually helpful. For me, that would mean being "heard".

Not being heard in the present might be a trigger and lead to a primal
concerning not being heard as a child. This wouldn't repeat the trauma, at least not for me.

I need someone listening who has an understanding about primal.
A random listener is not going to understand that this is just
a feeling I am having and will want to interfere. At least this
is how it seems to me.

Just screaming at parents or abusers is not considered primalling.
But it may be a start if the person wasn't able to do that before.

In my own case, I can often make progress by myself with no one
listening in. There never has been a time when I felt working alone like this to be counter productive. It either works and I get to something, or it doesn't work at that particular time. But maybe you have had different experiences. Everyone is different.


Author:  Mojo [ Tue Nov 22, 2005 1:00 pm ]
Post subject: 

Phil said just screaming at parents or abusers is not considered primalling. In every one of Janov's books I've read so far he says that making connections is the goal, not primals per se. That's his way of saying "insights," I guess. He likes to invent new terminology for old ideas because he doesn't want to admit that several aspects of his theory come from earlier schools of therapy. It's salesmanship. If someone knows they need to scream alone to make connections, so be it. Otherwise they might as well scream at a rock concert and see if that helps. I don't remember Janov saying anything about primal boxes in his later books.

Author:  Phil [ Tue Nov 22, 2005 1:00 pm ]
Post subject: 

At Janov's Center primal rooms are available for clients to use
on their own or with a buddy. He hasn't ever really encouraged
self primalling except in conjunction with his therapy. That's probably why primal boxes are not mentioned.
So he does encourage self primalling or work with a buddy for experienced primallers, although I haven't seen this mentioned in any of his books.

I would say that for me a primal box has to be more like a small room
otherwise it will feel too enclosed.

It would be hard for screaming at a concert to "go" anywhere. It is likely that this type screaming will be disconnected. It will just be "blowing off some steam". I wouldn't say that anyone shouldn't do that, go ahead!
But it isn't primalling.


Author:  Dennis [ Tue Nov 22, 2005 1:02 pm ]
Post subject: 

To put the subject back in context, we are talking about having a closed box around someone's head; the infamous primal box. I think people who are attracted to use such a box, have a different (pseudo) need acting up than just preventing the upsetting of the environment. I understand that most primaling occurs in private because most people are not familiar with Primal. If there's a need to scream and if someone is worried about the consequences, then what's really so different than to scream in a situation where screaming is socially accepted, at a concert (for example). Or why not scream against a pillow? Another obstacle having such box around your head is that it prevents you from anything else but screaming. I can imagine after screaming, a person starts saying 'help me', which is the first step to stand up and changing the helpless situation

If I remember well, in Primal Revolution, Janov speaks about the revolution Primal could cause, where people help other people to express their Pain. I think depending on your traumas, a lot of people don't need to go seek out a therapist. As Janov says, all expression is good.

Phil, have you read Ellie van Winkle and her criticism on Janov?


Author:  Phil [ Tue Nov 22, 2005 1:03 pm ]
Post subject: 

Hi Dennis,

I have read Ellie van Winkle but I don't remember what her criticisms
of Janov were. What I remember on her writings was that she
seemed to emphasize the toxic effects of anger. For me,
working on anger has been important but also sadness, need etc.
which van Winkle seemed to ignore.

I wouldn't want to use such a small primal box as you describe.

"As Janov says, all expression is good".
Did he say that?

Well, why have a moderated forum then?

Some expression is just acting out, dumping, advising etc. and can
be hurtful to other people. This wouldn't be healing, but it is probably healthier than holding it in.


Author:  smug [ Tue Nov 22, 2005 1:04 pm ]
Post subject:  primal box

there are links on the web for primal box building /soundproof boxes


build 2 boxes/rooms inside each other that dont touch.
the rooms/boxex should be relatively air tight.
low density material absorbs high frequency sound part, - fibrous/wool/cushions/foam/egg boxes etc
high density stuff absorbs lower /bass sound frequency - wood chip board -= lead !.

Some people say the airspace inbetween the rooms helps the soundproofing, although a musician friend of mine suggests i fill it with material- although then that menas the two rooms touch , so i probally wont do that.

if room is small , have a intake and or outake fan for air. Maybe a pipe from this that bends 90 degrees to help not let out sound.

maybe hang some over door to cover any gaps around door.

got it ?

So perhaps make like a carpenter will , a frame of 2 by 3's . Then perhaps gyprock /drywall the first inner room . Then another box frame 5 or 6 inches outside the inner one , and use denser maqterial for its walls.

I think it will be real easy. Im planning mine also.

I just dont want the police banging on my door , or to keep my neighbours awake .You dont have to primal in the box all the time !
And waking up from dreams with good feeling matearial often.

Cost about ? 80 in materails from builders yard.
good luck

Author:  Branch Janovian [ Tue Nov 22, 2005 1:05 pm ]
Post subject:  A place to scream

First, you may want to consider that Primalling isn't just screaming. Several Primal patients have been unable to open up and let loose with a full-throated Primal Scream, most notably Arthur Janov, who had throat surgery in his younger days. The main thing is to bypass the defensive system and feel. But if you haven't had Primal therapy before, it would probably be a better idea to get some actual Primal therapy first.

I've personally had some spontaneous Primals, but the times I've tried to make myself Primal ended in disaster (i.e., severe anxiety and distress, for weeks or months). I'm on Janov's side in this issue. I've begun saving for therapy, but if I can get into a good insurance plan, it will make the process a lot quicker.

There have been at least two web pages about building your own Primal Box or Primal Room. I think John Speyrer's Primal Pages link to one or both of them. Surf to http://primal-page.com/ or directly to http://primal-page.com/pbphoto.htm

If you own your own home, a small room is your best choice. A walk-in closet in the master bedroom (if it's yours) is ideal and probably requires the least modification.

Professional soundproofing like you'd expect to find in an audio production studio or a Primal center is expensive, but highly effective. On the other hand, if you are just interested in not annoying the neighbors while Primaling loudly, you don't need 100% perfect soundproofing. You just need to muffle the sound to about the level of a conversation. That way, your neighbors will have to listen really close to hear anything Primal.

Apartment renters don't have as much leeway, but a big closet can be padded fairly easily, but don't neglect the ceiling and floor where most of the neighbor-annoying sound would be leaking. You can even use bed mattresses and/or books.

When I was in first through third grade ("first form" for our Commonwealth readers), I was in an oppressive church school that had a spanking room, which was a textbook closet with the books lining the walls. However, it didn't get much use, since public spankings were not just painful, they were also humiliating and served to scare the young audiences. My second grade class was straight across the hall from the spanking room and the few times it was used, we didn't hear very much, but the criminal was inevitably led from the room with a red face with the tears streaming down, sometimes still crying loudly.

I've also seen "pods" for listening to loud music, loud lovemaking, and singing, that were basically "primal boxes". One design I saw was based on bolting panels together so the thing could be taken apart and moved. If you look around, you can probably find acceptable designs.

You could even get a couple bed mattresses and arrange them like a lean-to tent against a solid wall. A little imagination will go a long way.

Good luck!

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