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Childhood trauma and its consequences
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 2:46 am 
Dennis:
In that thread on Daniel Mackler's forum he replied, with regard to Miller's forum: "Alice Miller wanted to start an emotional cult here..." In the present day version, her website is rarely updated -- apart from 'selected' emails. Meanwhile, on the various parenting blogs around the internet there are posts every week about progress on childrens' rights, newspaper horror stories, encouraging achievements by campaigners, etc., etc. But Alice Miller has nothing to say about all that. In the German section of Alice Miller's site there's an announcement of her latest book, not yet translated into English: Dein gerettetes Leben (Your Saved Life, September 2007). Here's a rough translation:

Quote:
"In her answers to readers' letters Alice Miller engages with the suppressed truth of her readers, never doubting their stories. Her answers to letters show in a clear, direct way that previously concealed suffering can be spoken about, thereby freeing vital forces."

It appears the book is recycling the same material you can find on her site. She's not wrong about "previously concealed suffering... freeing vital forces," but her focus seems to have become very narrow.

On Daniels's forum Dennis wrote:
Aren't you - unconsciously - trying to make your readers make the same choices in life as you made?

It certainly looks that way. Does it merit a new topic?


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 3:01 pm 
Dennis,

Some reflections very swiftly (I have to manage my work too! Be able to focus on it! Have limited time to write and read even though it probably doesn?t seem as it is especially limited!?). Yes, I have got a lot to read too here!  :-) Have skimmed the first parts of that about Miller? Yes, maybe I would like to tell you what my experiences and reflections on this are. And experiences personally of therapy with a male (private) psychiatrist and psychotherapist (1988-1997, with a break 1995-1996)? Last summer I wrote to ?H?lso- och sjukv?rdens ansvarsn?mnd? http://www.hsan.se/eng/start.asp and asked about health-care professionals in general and at last about some in particular, and there was a report on this man, which I got!! Maybe I would like to forward it, but with names on the client reporting him and on the therapist taken away. It showed that the reporting (woman!!) was therapist herself - now? Educated from Socialh?gskolan (Department for Social Work at a college or University) too. She stayed even longer with this man, which was a sort of comfort? Was his client between 1989-1992 (also there with a break in the end). But this is a sidetrack actually here!?

You made a very good point about that about small children?s (babies) sensitivity: yes, have we grown up lost a/this sensitivity?? Noone even reflects over that possibility at all!? And as we have never experienced it we don?t even realize that we are missing it? I haven?t had time to look for that research yet?

And you also wrote something about blaming four generations back for how children are treated? We have to (ought to) try to see it from the child?s point of view then!? It can?t (yes, in a way it can and does?) understand the parent and the reasons for his/her actions? I don?t know how to describe this?

I just wanted to write this. And yes, I heard that too on the news about the findings about possible treatment of schizophrenia and links they had found to TBE!! http://www.svt.se/svt/jsp/Crosslink.jsp ... pos=lasmer

And thought what has been discussed here!

All these things above are about empathy deficits in different degrees and with different expressions? And that about economy...

Warmly
Karin


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 2:05 pm 
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I started a new thread for this...

Therapy is often a jungle in which rules are blurred and clarity absent. There are many scenarios where things went wrong and patients are not protected enough. I really believe that when things do go well, it's an exception. But the sad thing is that people who are in need of help, are not presented enough alternatives to choose from and they often lack the emotional insights to choose what is best for them. On top of that, because of the suppressed/ repressed pain that people want to avoid, they tend to choose the easy way in therapy. I'm planning for this website an anti-therapy list (wiki style) where all the established forms of therapy are stripped down in its abusive roots. Much like how Jeffrey Masson wrote it in his book Against Therapy. Of course people will point out to the benefits of these therapies as well, but to me that's the same argument as in rationalizing spanking in child rearing, for example, where they feel their parents had also done good things. That's not a justification in approving the spanking.

Dennis


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 6:32 pm 
Dennis,

Yes, I saw you started a new thread!  I have been digesting things for a while? Needed that!? Should do that more often instead of spontaneously reacting?? I don?t know?

Some thoughts that came for me during a walk now before nightfall? About what you wrote Dennis, and what I experienced at ourchildhood.int. Which then wasn?t called Alice Miller?s list, but I think it is now?

Here are my reflections: No explanation for being cut off. You have to mind-read, use your fantasy and imagination to understand what it was about, and what had caused the reaction? Just as the child once probably had to!? As Miller herself has written! Is it in ?Breaking Down the Walls of Silence?? To meet the child with silence, a wall of Silence, and if it doesn?t understand it has proven its badness and evilness. Or if the child persist the parent or parent-figure gets an outburst? Putting up that sort of wall instead!? Refusing to really listen to what the child (or the subscriber, client etc.) has to say? Miller actually writes about this in the "The Body Never Lies" about two therapists in training, Brigitte and Henry (both psychiatrists in the bottom)!! Where the male therapist got an outburst and was supported in his denial by the therapist he had (in "learning-therapy")!!

I felt: where does one go with complaints if something happens? Can there be reasons to warn people?

To leave something that is so much like a therapy with a lot of questions is very bad I think? What can that cause? Especially for more harmed individuals?

Mind-reading with all that can lead to: misinterpretations and misunderstandings?? Instead of communicating?

What I experienced was being punished for something one didn?t really understand, and thus one didn?t know what to react on really either! I reacted very strongly on a reply I got from Barbara... And she asked BobS to unsub me... He trusted Barbara? And did... This felt so very bad, I didn't feel well at all. It had been turbulent on the list before this... I thought one need to deal with the reactions which comes up in some way... BobS was fed up with the list, and I don't know what (and if) there had been between him and Miller...

It's really like in a family: with mom and dad quarreling!?? A deep sigh... And the children aren't informed about what's happening... What things are about. Sensitive "children" can misinterpret things?? But shouldn't the ones in he power-position try to avoid this??

Then it felt like, yes, as what Kafka wrote about!!! And as Miller has written about! Yes, that about living as one learns!? Being prone to admit one has problems with this at least, and/or is working on it, try to do something about it, is aware of it...

And that about methods (in therapy): is it so much about that (but also about that), more about the therapist? As in my work, I draw parallels to my work: it?s less the method than the teacher behind the method??

They speak about ?brukarmedverkan? in psychiatry and therapy in Norway (and it exists in Sweden too??)? But does it really change the therapist/helper??

Rules blurred, yes! Clarity, yes, what about? And the less harmed sees things through faster, while those who are most in need for help doesn?t? How do one protect oneself?

Warm greetings from a wintry part of Sweden

PS. Now I saw I had written wrong about the other woman who had the same therapist as I, she was his client to 2002, not 1992! With a break. In all she stayed with him for 9 years, while I stayed for 8...


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 11:59 pm 
Karin:
So sorry to hear of your treatment on 'ourchildhood.int'. It seems like those who make the rules have blind spots. Until they take a good look at themselves instead of judging others they risk repeating the treatment they received from their parents. A wall of silence, in this case. You said BobS was fed up with the list. I realize confidentiality must be respected. But would it be possible to say what gave you the impression he was fed up?

I don't often visit the reader's mail at Alice Miller's site because mostly it's a few variations on a handful of themes from an endless stream of correspondents. Miller's responses are usually very brief.

Dennis:
An anti-therapy wiki would be a good way to identify poisonous pedagogy in the various schools of psychotherapy. Personally, I don't care anymore if some psychotherapist, somewhere, claims to have better techniques or methods than all the rest. That smells of salesmanship. Hubris. A warning sign. An enlightened witness is someone who really cares about your feelings and the original cause of your emotional pain. That witness could be a therapist, or not. The training isn't the crucial factor. I think people who don't understand that have an "emotional intelligence" deficit. When therapists boast how "well trained" they are, I think of circus animals.

The reason I was able to escape from a cult many years ago is that I stopped believing that if someone said the things I wanted to hear (the cult leader, in my case) he or she must have access to the ultimate truth. Many abused children continue to idealize mom & pop -- or symbolic substitutes -- after they become adults. The Gold Standard for identifying someone as a cultist is when they are adamant that certain writers, therapists or gurus are completely free from any blind spots. The same applies to those who say that Janov-trained therapists can never make mistakes or behave abusively.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 10:33 am 
D.R.B.,

Thank you for your reply. A hopefully brief (and spontaneous) reply: yes, BobS expressed, off-list, how fed up he was with the list, extremely fed up. And I don't think this is a secret? I can well understand this. Starting to write about those things probably makes people react in a lot of ways? And many reacted off-list?? It can?t be otherwise!? But then the ones responsible must be able to handle it, in a similar way as a therapist. People got angry at each others? It felt as it boiled under the surface here and there (maybe a projection from my part)? And then it was a mothering-debate on the list too, that awoke very strong reactions.

Yes, there were 20-30 postings each day at the list. To read all those posts for the moderator must have been quite a job. I could write an essay about this?? Hmmm?

And I think (wonder) if Miller didn?t have a finger in things, also off-list?? Even if it stood that the lists are independent of Miller?

My reaction to Miller?s replies to readers: I react over her tone in them? How shall I express this in English? I don?t know if this is a projection from my part, but as if she thinks people are stupid who haven?t dealt with things better!? No, real warmth or interest? Too often a bitter old woman, who at last gets responses on what she have tried to say? Authoritarian and tired??

Most often it is the readers? letters that has something to say I feel? They are coming there with their confidences. People don?t come with such things to all and everyone!? I don?t know if I am blind to things in what people write?

I agree with what you wrote:
?An enlightened witness is someone who really cares about your feelings and the original cause of your emotional pain. That witness could be a therapist, or not. The training isn't the crucial factor. I think people who don't understand that have an "emotional intelligence" deficit.?

Well said!

And today I don?t feel as concerned as I felt then (two years ago) about the people on the list? Because, I don?t know, I have realized that it?s not only ourchildhood.int that offers a forum to express tings?

Thank you, Dennis, for the tip about Jeffrey Masson!

Karin


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 10:30 pm 
PS. Some further thoughts.

When ones ability to criticize was arisen that wasn?t quite okay? When one had started to dare to speak up?

Threatened to silence? Actually by Miller herself (because I wrote to her)... She refused to listen or try to answer the lightest bit!? As if she didn't want to hear or listen at all! A thick wall of Silence. I felt extremely bad about this. Trying to manage work, my everyday life, in fact studies too (see below), everything...

I was lucky to have gotten in contact with two people from the list off-list, a woman and a man. I still have contact with that woman now two years later. And we have even met in real life three times, even if we live 700 km apart!! When I studied at a music college in the south (traveled there five weekends during a year).

But if you don?t have anything to hide, would there be any problems, for the one/s with responsibility and power? Yes, a moderator has the power to refuse to post items, can unsub a person etc. Of course one can wonder if people have threatened the moderator? Off-list maybe.

I think people wrote to BobS off-list and said: but why didn?t you post my post when you posted his/her?? What was the difference? Look? Sp BobS had to go back a search for a post and reread it? Phew!

There came new rules when Barbara took over the moderator-role, one of them was that people got a message that their post was received, so people knew their posting hadn?t got lost, because here was a lot of troubles with Topica. But this message wasn?t signed by either Barbara or BobS (but my impression was that Barbara took over the moderator-task entirely, I may be wrong). Noone (Barbara??) dared to take responsibility for a refusal of posts? And there was no motivation for the decision. Thick-skinned people can take this?? Or the ones treated like this was evil ones? As if people after all are born evil, and/or are hopeless cases?

And my feeling (right or wrong) was that Barbara thought the old subscribers where BobS?s responsibility?? As if she didn?t want to fix up? And wanted to start from scratch. The old ones were left to their own destiny? She washed her hands of it?

I thought (and still think) this is hypocritical? That things was swept under the rug. Things didn?t come to surface.

In an atmosphere like this therapeutically for anyone? Doesn?t sensitive people feel this more or less consciously and adapt to this? And repress things instead of articulating them and exploring what they are about? And it isn?t the nice feelings that tell us most?

There was (of course) a lot of talk about the horrible parents, but about the relations in the group? Was this possible to speak about? Unthinkable, forbidden? Here and now reactions that probably said a lot?? And also should have been spoken about? Including being allowed to criticize the responsible or point things out? And exploring what hat was about; if it actually was something the responsible should think about or if t was about something else: a trigger, something in the present that triggered something from the past, that never got an opportunity to surface as it was?

Of course you shall protect people in a group, especially if it is a group with ?signatures? (f?rtecken I Swedish) of being a therapy-group of any kind, if it is necessary, if trials to communicate haven?t led to anything.

When people start to speak up can?t that be a healthy sign? But maybe t isn?t always so funny: trying to think how it is if a pupil starts to react? And articulate her/himself. Yes, you need to know who you are, so you can handle it? By this not said I am very sure of myself. I am more than I have been?

And the responsible must be able to protect her/himself if it is necessary, in an adequate manner??

In some circumstances you expect to be treated well.

The worse criminals (even serial murderers) gets lawyers, you have to prove the crime? And they are told for what they are accused, what their crime ?consists? of! They get opportunities to speak up.

As if one was worse than the worse criminal!!!

This turned out to be a long posting, sorry. Came home extremely tired this evening? A lot of emotions?
Karin


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 6:51 am 
Karin, you've highlighted a big problem that affects all moderated lists where there is the slightest chance that posts could cause strong feelings. Where the content is neutral moderators only need to remind people to stay "on-topic" or start a new thread, and maybe remove spam. Where there is controversy, however, the moderators' opinions can often be the source of bias or unfair decisions.

Karin wrote:
In an atmosphere like this therapeutically for anyone? Doesn't sensitive people feel this more or less consciously and adapt to this? And repress things instead of articulating them and exploring what they are about? And it isn't the nice feelings that tell us most?

And that is the other big problem with mailing lists and forums. To experience therapeutic benefits a person must restrict their confidences to people they can trust. They need to keep vulnerable feelings private until they're sure they are communicating with others who are fully supportive. If people start finding faults or blind spots in each other, the feeling of safety will collapse. I don't believe there is a solution in the context of a mailing list. I'm not even sure it would be any better in groups that meet in person (for example, Alcoholics Anonymous). If Alice Miller recommends the list as a therapeutic environment (maybe she doesn't), I think that's naive.

As Dennis' posts on the other forum showed, Alice Miller wasn't able to make her old forum a success. She closed it because she didn't like what people were saying. I don't think it is realistic to imagine that a moderated list could serve a therapeutic function. All the people who supervise the list should have faced up to that by now, not only BobS.

PS. In the earlier post you wrote:

Quote:
Most often it is the readers' letters that has something to say I feel. They are coming there with their confidences.

It sounds like you feel the readers' letters are more open and honest than the exchanges on the list.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:11 am 
D.R.B.,

You made many good points in your reply! :-)

You wrote: ??you've highlighted a big problem that affects all moderated lists where there is the slightest chance that posts could cause strong feelings.?

So true. This puts high demands on the moderator/the responsible/a therapist!? On her/his developmental stage/level?

You wrote: ?Where the content is neutral moderators only need to remind people to stay "on-topic" or start a new thread, and maybe remove spam. Where there is controversy, however, the moderators' opinions can often be the source of bias or unfair decisions.?

Yes, you need to be very fair, and not treat people differently, whether you like some more than others? Very difficult. I don?t know if this is impossible? What teachers ought to do: treat her/his pupils and students the same. As bosses ought to. Makes the best climate.

I don?t know if I am very na?ve in this?? How realistic this is? But the ambition must be this, the honest ambition. And the one in a power-position must be open and willing to work on her/himself. To question her/himself, which includes try to be better and better in judging what is about her/him or what is about the other part? Is this very na?ve too? But I wonder if a reaction in oneself (me as teacher and employee, and bosses above me, moderators on a list or forum, therapists, psychiatrists, physicians towards a client) can be a sign it is about early things that hasn?t been processed yet, and that one should oneself be willing to work on this. You ought to in every position where there is power-imbalance?? To realize in a power-position that you have more power. Being so mature? Or at least being aware that you can make mistakes, that you do mistakes, and that you are prepared to take the responsibility for this? Apologize or what it can be about? Oh, this is difficult.

I can see projections thrown back and forward in many relations?

You wrote: ??To experience therapeutic benefits a person must restrict their confidences to people they can trust.?

This is also so true! The less harmed knows/feels where the boundaries lies!? Because their integrity was respected to that degree early in life!?

But the ones with more harmed integrity haven?t learned this!? We are back to the point where the ones that most need help (are more harmed, i.e., have more to process) also are the most vulnerable!! And the ones needing less help more naturally sees and senses such things and are able to protect themselves better and more adequately and leave circumstances that aren?t quite so good (clients stays in therapies that leads to little or nothing year after year for instance)! But this is nothing you learn with your head or brain!? But awareness is at least a start! I am very skeptical to AA? I have a sister (my youngest sibling, 12, 5 years younger than I) who has worked as social worker, and as ?kurator? (there is no proper translation in English??) both in adult and child-psychiatry and in schools (now working in school again)? She has been in therapy too? What she has said has really made me think? I feel fairly critical to many helpers and a lot of so called ?help?.

You wrote: ?As Dennis' posts on the other forum showed, Alice Miller wasn't able to make her old forum a success. She closed it because she didn't like what people were saying. I don't think it is realistic to imagine that a moderated list could serve a therapeutic function. All the people who supervise the list should have faced up to that by now, not only BobS.?

My impression and feeling is that Miller didn?t want to listen to what Dennis tried to say!? Isn?t she surer of herself? And why? Because all reactions she has gotten from the surrounding world; resistance, denial etc.? Trying to understand her, am I??

And did she, too, react against "the child in the emperors new cloths" who spoke up?

You wrote: ?It sounds like you feel the readers' letters are more open and honest than the exchanges on the list.?

Yes, maybe it is so in a sense. But what I tried to say (put in words and in print) is that I am reacting over Millers tone: Ironic, sarcastic or how I shall describe it? Maybe this says more about me than about her? But as if she feels/says: ?Oh, at last people have understood!! After all my struggles!?

Oh, I had thought of being brief? (No, I am not writing about everything I have in mind!!? Either?).
Karin

PS. On integrity: The Norwegian physician Anna Luise Kirkengen has written a lot about integrity-violations; early ones and how easily they later lead to renewed integrity-violations, in somatic medicine, psychiatry and other places outside health care etc. Horrible stories about (not least or in first hand) women, with unexplainable medical histories, called somatizers, which are operated on, and all organs taken away without curing them? Physicians (people in health care) talk about persistent somatizers, but she replies who speaks about persistent neglecters?

She worked as General Practitioner in Oslo and in contact with patients she started to reflect? Most of her patients were women (women tend to go to doctors in a higher degree than men!?)..

Here a review of her first book by a Vincent Felitti working in a study called the ACE-study: http://xnet.kp.org/permanentejournal/sp ... ribed.html
And about the ACE-study: http://www.acestudy.org/


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 2:17 pm 
Karen wrote:
We are back to the point where the ones that most need help (are more harmed, i.e., have more to process) also are the most vulnerable.

Catch-22. I can't think of an easy solution to this dilemma. What makes it worse is that these vulnerable people are the ones who can most easily be persuaded that a therapist's theories or 'thorough training' are the important factors. Neither of those things can impart empathy if the therapist wasn't already an empathic person before choosing to become a therapist.

It is very sad that all the findings of the ACE-study have been confirmed by countless researchers over the past 50 years -- and yet they are still ignored by supporters of bio-psychiatry. That's because of a problem with bio-psyciatrists, not because of any weakness in the evidence supporting the ACE study.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 11:24 am 
D.R.B.,
I am in a hurry, but I am digesting what you have written! Your new thread too! Very interesting stirred a lot of thought in me...

You are right about catch 22 (moment 22 in Swedish I think).

And that about supporters of bio-psychiatry... It's both this and the Societal Denial!!?? I have informed about both Kirkengen (who works in our neighbor country!!) and the ACE-study and its reporters to our two biggest newspapers here and to a program in the Swedish Television "As the doctor" (Fr?ga doktorn). http://www.svt.se/svt/jsp/Crosslink.jsp ... program_ao

Nothing has happened - yet... And my mom has worked in health care, different parts of it... And I have been thinking about her views and attitudes, now shown in her attitude to own illnesses... For he it's about taking pills, and curing things from outside... Oh, is this out of topic?

And I got interested i Joseph LeDoux and googled on him... He seem to be reluctant too to the topic emotions?

And I grew up with animals around, and still have animals in my environment... Seeing how they are reacting. Things we have got lost? Our intelligence seem to be a problem? I have had blind pupils and auscultating on music-lessons with children with Downs Syndrome, seeing how they are reacting...

Drawing neck-breaking connections??
Karin


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 4:36 pm 
It's interesting to learn that Catch-22 has a different title in Swedish: http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moment_22

Do you remember that readers' mail about bio-medical scientists, and the link? Here is another on the same site: http://robothink.blogspot.com/2006/03/u ... brain.html
:-) :D


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 9:25 pm 
D.R.B., thank you for the tips in the thread "Defective genes"! :-)

To all: I got an email from a friend yesterday with tips about two videos, one with Thomas Szasz and the other with Jeffrey Schaler on psychiatry:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lk4hWWPv9EY&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-P6_FwpV ... ed&search=

I thought I should forward the links, they were very interesting I think.

Karin


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 2:39 pm 
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Karin, it's unfair how you were treated at ourchildhood.int I suppose originally the idea was to have people talk about their childhood hurt without other people commenting on it, in a pedagogical way. In my opinion all one could say were things that validated the hurt and confirming the wrongness in the afflicted abuse. But when people join a group, communication is all there is. What victims of child abuse often seem to forget when they are on the path of healing from the damage, is that there is a blurry line between being victim and being abuser. Everyone who hasn't reached an emotional awareness about the abuse, tends to repeat it. It's tempting to search for like-minded people who have suffered similar abuse, but the best way to healing is to seek contact with healthy people. Because sooner or later repressed pain can be evoked in the other - unintentionally - just by sharing your own experiences and formerly repressed pain.

The way ourchildhood.int is set up is really amateurish. Here there was an opportunity to build something constructive but someone came dragging with the free mailing lists of Topica.com Not worth a dollar in the eyes of the founders. Bob Scharf had also founded americanchildhood on Topica in 2001, of which I was denied membership immediately without an explanation. But another member of this forum, Kerry, had insightful information about the inner circle there, and wrote about it on John Speyrer's former forum. Apparently Barbara and Bob cannot question the motives of Alice Miller and do what she tells them to do. Miller has said several times that you can't demand a response from anyone and if you do, it's abusive. I can imagine how her parents have threatened her to talk to her. But in the adult world, how abusive is a simple communication of whatever that bothers you? After all, it's part of a group of which the founders carry some responsibility towards the members. Otherwise you might as well have a completely open forum.

I've said it before, but if you want to protect people against abusive remarks, instead of banning all the bullies, what more therapeutic is it to get help as well from other people, recognizing the abuse and condemning it. All in the open.

Karin, what was that dispute you had with Barbara, if you are willing to share that?

Karin wrote:
What teachers ought to do: treat her/his pupils and students the same. As bosses ought to. Makes the best climate.


I'm not sure about this. Treating everyone the same, is denying one's individuality. People are different. A person can only deal with max 15 individuals, anything more and generalization occurs. And if this generalization becomes the standard, conformism arise and people become less authentic.

DRB, I agree of what you said about the anti-therapy wiki. For a while I haven't emphasized therapeutic abuse as much as I could because the pharmaceutical industry gladly wants to see all therapy vanish and put all people on pills instead. But an anti-therapy wiki could confirm certain feelings of people in therapy who start questioning things, before it's too late.

Dennis


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 10:23 pm 
Dennis,
Your reply was helpful in thinking further! Have just returned from work, so I am a bit tried, but I wanted to write nevertheless.
Yes, I too have the impression that Miller steered the forum and still steers it, even if she write on her web that people shall ?Please keep in mind that these lists work independently from Alice Miller, they are fully autonomous regarding the content and the design that are solely under the responsibility of the moderator. Actually, Alice Miller had only the idea of creating this kind of forums, nothing else.?
I wonder if she has got emails from others trying to tell her about what is happening?? And she doesn?t want such emails any more??
I felt so very strongly then that people could get severely hurt by how they were treated, things noone saw. I felt extremely bad about it. Of course many would wonder if my thoughts only say things about me?? And maybe this is only about me, but in a healthy context you can explore this!? And what?s the problem for the ones in power (as a moderator is who can unsub people) if she/he has nothing to hide?? And really is interested in helping people!?
You wrote: ?Miller has said several times that you can't demand a response from anyone and if you do, it's abusive.?
Very strange!!?? Isn?t this exactly as it could have been with our parents once??? You were not allowed to question them or ask (maybe not even kindly or quietly) for an explanation or answer!!?? Once again, if there was nothing to hide so what is the problem?? Think if I should deny my pupils answers on questions they pose!!! How would that be??
Isn?t what Miller shows very authoritarian and, yes, totalitarian?? She contradicts what she has written herself?? And how is this for people in real distress and troubles??
You wrote: ?But in the adult world, how abusive is a simple communication of whatever that bothers you? After all, it's part of a group of which the founders carry some responsibility towards the members. Otherwise you might as well have a completely open forum.?
Yes, we were grown up people!!! If someone should be able to communicate isn?t it grown up people!??? As grown ups!? Yes, it is part of the group!! And yes, the founders carry responsibility for what happens, if things get sorted out, in what manner etc.?? In this circumstance it is even more important, in many ways? Because of the things people talk about, all these sensitive things which bring a lot of emotions up with all what that mean, and reacts at others? And o top, this group, written about at Miller?s webb and mentioned in her book/s, isn?t it a place where people expect to get treated well? Yes, more enlightened?? And that also mean people can get very hurt if they are badly treated?? They maybe expect even less to be badly treated in such a forum.
You wrote: ??there is a blurry line between being victim and being abuser.?
Yes, that?s so true!! And isn?t it this that is so problematic in this?? You need to have an enormous awareness so you don?t abuse another human being? But hasn?t Miller herself written that people are more vulnerable in these two circumstances: as children dependent and totally help and powerless towards their parents, AND people in therapy, where they expect to be helped (a very fair expectation)?? And abuse in these circumstances is even more harmful than in most other circumstances?
And you wrote: ?Otherwise you might as well have a completely open forum.?
And, yes, the closed forum is a problem too!! There are no witnesses except among those on the forum. And noone knew why a person disappeared? About things that maybe occurred off-list? Don?t people sense this somewhere? Even if they aren?t really aware of it? Does this create the needed atmosphere?
And Miller has written about open, genuine communication?
When I write this I am coming to think about: shouldn?t there be a dialogue?? Which means giving and taking? Something not coming only from one part?? Miller who has written about ?the Wall of Silence? so many times herself!! The wall that doesn?t respond or reacts!! Seemingly deaf, blind etc.?? If one didn?t get any response from the authority-figure isn?t this a re-enacting instead?? Things rather being strengthened instead of the opposite? Oh, am I out in the blue totally now??
You wrote: ?I've said it before, but if you want to protect people against abusive remarks, instead of banning all the bullies, what more therapeutic is it to get help as well from other people, recognizing the abuse and condemning it. All in the open.?
Yes, why not take it up in open air?? And explore it there in an honest trial to sort things out, learn something? Meeting abusive remarks, yes!! Not banning the bullies until you realize there will never come something constructive out of letting this person stay on the list?? Deal with it! Or at least try to deal with it? I can imagine this isn?t easy at all? But isn?t it this one should try with?
You asked: ?Karin, what was that dispute you had with Barbara, if you are willing to share that??
No, I don?t mind? I got a reply from Barbara, when she was still an ordinary subscriber, not the moderator, where she commented my use of question- and exclamation marks. I reacted very strongly on the way she did this. By then I had got so ?warm in the cloths? on the forum, and reacted on a lot of things (as I did almost from the beginning) and I wrote a reply back, where I said what I thought. I though how she wrote was very insensitive.
I can well imagine what all my question- and exclamation-marks are about. Expressions of anger etc. etc. etc. with roots early (not least from my relation with my father, which was very thick-skinned, even literally, and probably not at all respectful against the little girl)?
I don?t know, I felt almost ordered to do that and that I as the kind girl once again deliver obediently and kindly? I felt; no, she shall not tell me what to do or decide in what pace I should do things? Thought she was very clumsy, and behaved like a real bulldozer?
The woman I still have contact with had reacted too on Barbara?s posting to me, in a similar manner, but she thought if Karin didn?t react than it was probably nothing?
Barbara wrote a new posting and persevered. No considerations for my feelings (even if I was entirely wrong and she entirely right)? No apologizes.
I don?t know, but if a pupil reacts I respect her/his reaction and apologizes I think? By this not said I think never do wrong, sad to say I probably do, without being aware of it? But I try to work on it.
I couldn?t help wonder if Miller maybe had reacted? And maybe said something to Barbara about this? Sounds paranoiac??
In the middle of this, when I once again reacted. And said what I thought to Barbara, a couple of men wrote and said something in the style: Wow Karin!!!
Supported me. As if they thought ?at last!!? Yes, come on!!!
A woman didn?t really write to me of some reason, as if se didn?t dare to come near the sort of person she experienced me as? Such a delightful way of being? Me with my lousy English?
Was Miller jealous?? (my mother-relation??) Miller is older than my mom? I, a younger woman? I have read Miller?s book well ad read a lot else and processed what I have read, during the last almost 20 years? I don?t know, was I a threat??
And at last, that about treating pupils or children the same? No, of course I didn?t mean treating them like Prokrustes with his bed! How shall I put this?? (and I don?t say I am perfect on this, far from I think). But not making differences between children the best one can. Without being dishonest (is that possible??)? But trying to see each individual? To see each person. Realising it is a living human being you have to do with. Treating them respectfully?
And, yes, big classes is really a problem here!!!
But I am not class-teacher, so I don?t have to deal with that.
I meet my pupils one by one, or two at the time? Thus more personally than many other teachers and in a way we work with more sensitive things? Talking about feelings; expressions etc. too. And we also have contact with the pupils for longer periods of their lives than many other teachers.
And a feeling I have got: I have had pupils both from Eastern and Western countries (from Russia, Eastern-Europe, China etc. etc.) or with parents from these countries? The school-systems they come from seem to be harder/tougher or more authoritarian than the one we have here?? Or the one I have experienced myself as pupil/student myself AND as teacher since many years?? And I have colleagues from Eastern-Europe and can compare with them and their education too? Strange we Swedes can compete at all!!?? But I think we can? Or am I wrong? Was this a side-track?
This became very long-winded?
Warm greetings
Karin
PS. I don?t mind telling you more?


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