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Childhood trauma and its consequences
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 Post subject: Reflections on therapy
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 4:32 pm 
Steve wrote:
I saw some old discussion somewhere once between some Primal people, not sure if that's what you referenced or not. Had been hunting for serious criticism/rebuttal of Miller.

Did you find a criticism/rebuttal that you thought was fair? Dennis started the topic "An Analysis Of The Limits Of Alice Miller." It's already quite a long thread. I'm wondering if there are more issues -- a new topic perhaps?


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 3:57 am 
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Steve, I don't know if you have read it, but on Daniel Mackler's forum, there are some good criticisms on Alice Miller. I wrote down my experiences I had with Alice Miller when she had her own forum in 2001, which you can read here.

Karin, of course you can translate parts of the Sinéad O'Connor interview in Swedish. One thing I noticed though on your blog, is that you write many good things but they get easily lost in the stream of unrelated posts you have. Why not have multiple blogs, that can divide your different interests?

Dennis

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 6:51 am 
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D.R.B. and Dennis,

I'm way behind the curve on this story, just want to repeat that. My aim is still to read much more than I talk, much as possible. My main interest here when first posting was to pass on what I'd read about Sinéad--given what I knew about Dennis' connection--and maybe to give a little cheer for what I'm convinced are 'the good guys'. Which is you guys, no doubt. I've been pretty intent on this whole business for the last fifteen months, ever since FYOG nailed me to the wall. I read a hard copy of Drama at the same time, actually (and others since then) but Own Good is what convinced me there was no way this lady could be ignored by the field. "Copernicus" hit me like a ton of bricks probably less than a fourth of the way through (was disappointed actually, that she seemingly was left to make the comparison herself in the 'Manifesto' (?) in her appendix). "Paracelsus" I think is a fair analogy too, since she resigned from the IPA or whatever it's called, though personally (I think there's danger in extrapolating too far) it seems clear this could be more revolutionary than either. Checking just now I don't see it, but I think it was her Wikipedia page that had a link to Mackler--his "Limits of" essay, I think (which I came back to and finished a few days before first posting here--and I'll take this opportunity to say that if I never hear the word 'hubris' again it won't be too soon. Whew-ee!). Seems like the link to Mackler was under a heading like "Critical"--but I was looking for something more on the order of "The sun does TOO orbit around the earth!" or "An imbalance of humours is TOO what makes you sick!" and of course those are nowhere near the positions he takes. So no, really, far as finding direct arguments against her position. After a lot of searching I found one psychologist moaning that the whole idea was too utopian, saying that the books are targeted at ordinary people too much, that for those reasons the ideas couldn't be taken seriously; I think also that verifiability was an issue. Something like that. But that's about it. Mainly so far there just seems to be an awful lot of ignoring going on, maybe a lot of "I'm not saying anything, you say something!"

Indirectly of course you don't have to look too hard. Psychiatrist Anthony Daniels ("Theodore Dalrymple") tromps all over Samuel Butler's The Way of All Flesh and those who would be "suckered in" by it's "me" philosophy in this 2005 review: http://newcriterion.com:81/archive/23/jan05/daniels.htm I'd happened to read a section of Butler's book a month before finding Miller.

I think it's fair to assume that at this point I have less general knowledge of what's out there than the average interested person. Sorry.

Steve


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 6:57 am 
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Let me change to "There's no POINT in extrapolating very far." Steve


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 11:01 am 
Steve,

Skimmed your last two messages. I am not really sure I “caught” what you wrote (I read swiftly and sometimes I struggle with the English still), but nevertheless I spontaneously felt I wanted to tip you about the Dutch therapist Ingeborg Bosch and the American Jean Jenson; they think there is a societal denial around child abuse. And the also write that there is an emotional form too that is easily belittled, minimised and neglected. Inspired by Pia Melody and co-dependency…

With this not said that I think their way of dealing is the one and only, but they are worth reading to understand the mechanisms more I think…

Yes, I wonder if I should set up different blogs as Dennis suggested. To be honest I have felt that the topics I write about are very controversial, and have been afraid of being attacked by people or go out there and imagine I have something to say and contribute with… But there is certainly a lot I have on my mind!!??

Maybe I should set up a blog for psychological issues and another for political? Or? I have to think on it… Maybe I keep on posting everything at my first blog, but also separate postings to other blogs?

But in my blog there are a lot of (!!!) links in the margin to the left, you and everyone else are allowed to use these links as much as you want. I have tried to link everything I can in English, but you will soon discover which links don’t exist in English but only in Swedish, I think they are few.

And I have written labels to each post and there is a list too with these labels at the left in the blog, there you can maybe also botanize!? You are free to do that.

When I set up the blog I didn’t know exactly where I would go with it… So the labels in the beginning are somewhat meagre… But I set the up not least for myself; to find things I want to relate to and maybe develop even more or even rewrite…

I guess I have a lot of material there to do that now, hmmm…

When I set up the blog I had also experienced people attacking bloggers, that also made me careful, but I wanted to write nevertheless…

I have also tipped about books, many are in English, and there you also have interesting figures as Jennifer Freyd, Judith Herman and Jonathan Pincus (all Americans)… They are amazingly open, but Miller is even more radical I think, and I think Miller is right.

There are probably people I don’t know of at all too. And my entrance to this whole is not the professional’s, but what I feel and have understood from what I have read…

Oh, this didn’t become especially brief…

And during this journey I have also had to develop my English… First when I started to write to ourchildhood.int. Express these things in a language I hadn’t used for many, many years… Many mountains to climb. And in the beginning it was a real struggle to read all books I have now read in English. But it gets easier and easier, but there is still a lot I have to learn I guess. And I have many questions. When do you use that and when that? etc. And in the spontaneous style I have I sometimes chance too, in impatience... Too impatient to look words up in my wordbook (which seem to have limits! Despite one of my cousins thinks this particular wordbook is good enough; he has used English in his work as engineer and studied English in England through work).

And I don’t know if I shall blame my choice of work; that I am very spontaneous, despite I am in fact fairly shy (or have been), I am extremely eager and with the years I have become more and more impatient! But not with the pupils/students I think. In fact I have had students saying I have had an enormous patience with them. Of course I am responsible for what I write. To be honest I an become blushing red when I realize how I have written! (sometimes I also discover that I did no wrong either! My history: with my father?? Academic, a five years education at college, agricultural, to agronomist).

I am in fact the oldest of six siblings coming very close… When I was seven the fifth child, a sister, was born. So the attention for each of us… My way of getting that attention – and conditional love? – was to be very clever and always fantasizing…

Despite all those smaller siblings I like children a lot!! But sadly I have no own. Despite my ancestors, which got a lot of children. My maternal grandmother grew up as the midst of 17 siblings (to the same mother and father) near the Arctic Circle… All those children got old, despite one that died at birth. The average is over 83 years for these siblings. From this couple it has come a lot more than 1000 children, grandchildren, great grandchildren etc.!! I have my small wonders about how their lives have developed…

Oh, excuse for the length.

Karin


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 11:08 am 
PS. Logged out too swiftly, a sigh.

And the link to Ingeborg Bosch's site, I forgot: http://www.prionline.eu/pri_en/index.htm See the overview.
I suggest a reading of the case-histories: http://www.prionline.eu/pri_en/pri_case_histories.htm

Warmly (hug to you)
Karin


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 3:45 pm 
Dennis,
I took you on your word, and have set up another blog "reflektioner och speglingar - Alice Miller..." http://reflektionerochspeglingaralicemi ... gspot.com/ , where I am going to link to the other blog...
Karin


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 4:05 pm 
Steve wrote:
After a lot of searching I found one psychologist moaning that the whole idea was too utopian, saying that the books are targeted at ordinary people too much, that for those reasons the ideas couldn't be taken seriously;

Psychiatrist Anthony Daniels ("Theodore Dalrymple") tromps all over Samuel Butler's The Way of All Flesh and those who would be "suckered in" by it's "me" philosophy in this 2005 review

That Miller's books are targeted at ordinary people is a GOOD thing in my opinion. These days I'm filled with ennui by the writings of intellectualizing psychologists and psychotherapists. Let me use that awful word again. I think it's hubris on their part to think that they are the keyholders to psychological truths when their endless outpourings haven't made much of a difference to the general level of psychological well-being in society.

A friend once recommended Samuel Butler's The Way of All Flesh and I was favorably impressed, although Butler's Erehwon is better known.

Anthony Daniels' review strikes me as an example of rejecting the truth in order to conform to the mores of our society in denial. It's a huge exaggeration to say that Butler's lesser know book was "one of the sacred texts of filial impiety." He goes on to say: "I felt I owed it to myself as an independent, autonomous person to cheek my teachers, albeit subtly, and raise sophistical objections to all their teachings." Butler didn't advocate such behavior. I think Daniels is just looking for somewhere to pin the blame for his own youthful immaturity. He also sneers at the 1925 Nobel prize-winner in Literarure, George Bernard Shaw.

Here is my favorite quote from Chapter VI of The Way of All Flesh:

Quote:
"Young people have a marvellous faculty of either dying or adapting themselves to circumstances. Even if they are unhappy -- very unhappy -- it is astonishing how easily they can be prevented from finding it out, or at any rate from attributing it to any other cause than their own sinfulness."

Karin:
The name of your blog. What does it translate to in English?
reflektioner och speglingar...

Dennis:
This thread is now 5 pages. Would be a good idea to transfer the recent posts to a new topic in the Therapy category?

Steve, you wrote:
Quote:
I was looking for something more on the order of "The sun does TOO orbit around the earth!" or "An imbalance of humours is TOO what makes you sick!"

I'm not really too sure what that alludes to. Could you explain it a bit more?


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 6:14 pm 
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Karin,

Miller writes somewhere that she wanted to find the source of evil. If she didn't succeed--didn't hit the nail directly on the head and harder than anyone has before--I'll eat my hat. I understand that denial is essential to evil's survival, but the apparent lack of professional interest out there over the last several decades (with exceptions) about what she's written--well I guess I'm trying to decide if it's "depressing" or "hilarious"...

How to best deal with and heal the effects of what we do and have already done to each other is a separate consideration. She has her own ideas, and as far I've seen they make as much or more sense than any others. But I don't exactly consider myself to 'have a dog in that fight' except that I'm not likely to say "Oh that's nice, whatever works" if a friend told me they'd gotten a new diagnosis and medication. Just want to make the point that why things are screwed up and how to unscrew the already screwed are to me two different things.

Which bring me to you goddam Vikings. :wink: Running all over, for centuriesharassing and conquering everybody you could find, very not-nice people by any definition, even though you already had cooler hats and boats than anybody. And my understanding is that all that aggression and meanness was blamed on the fact that you just were always running out of food (and land) because of all the babies you just for some reason couldn't figure out how to quit making. So if it's true that even in the recent past large families were (or are?) the rule there, I'd just like to know what happened, how everything seemed to turn around 180 degrees in terms of aggression and meanness. Even in the U.S., areas heavily populated by Swedish immigrants are supposed to be among the lowest in crime and the "nicest" places to live. It doesn't make any sense. And I don't know, I suppose some of the scenery might be nice when there's light enough to see it, but "the Arctic Circle"?!? What do you get, maybe twenty-two seconds of daylight a day there in winter?! I don't know. Sorry sorry. It's none of my business. I'm just happy you learned English so well so that I could get this off my chest.

Steve


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 7:05 pm 
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D.R.B.,
First, I think it's fine, too, that Miller writes for anyone. I think her whole basis starts with the fact that there's no 'rocket science' involved.

I'm not sure I understand your question about the allusions I made. The sun orbiting the earth was Ptolemy, and humours ("black bile, yellow bile", so forth) were Galen. "Medicine". Dark Age self-perpetuating misconceptions. So I'm not sure what you're asking. It seemed obvious to me that she had blown a hole in things at least as large as either Copernicus or Paracelsus had--and twenty years before I'd even heard about it. So I thought it would be fairly easy to find examples of the existing science to defending itself against her premise. (And hopefully, too, many in that field enthusiastically picking up that ball and running with it, finding real solutions left and right.) It hasn't seemed to have tried, it's just gone on trying to be what it was before, mostly ignoring the hole she blew in it from what I can tell. I did want to learn as much as I could about what people who genuinely disagreed had to say, though.

Steve


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 7:27 pm 
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Dennis and Karin,

By the way, you did discover that Miller is not a perfect human being. The truth's the truth and I don't suppose anything bad can ever come from it, I think it's fine and maybe even important that those experiences be noted. (Not pleasant for you though, I'm very glad you hung in and still work for what's right.) I'd guess that she couldn't help but be a far nicer person, though, than Issac Newton, who may have been the biggest absolute jerk, professionally, who ever lived. Still: "For every action there is an opposite and equal reaction", what can you say?

Steve


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 8:21 pm 
Oh, Steve,

No I just want to write a reply!!! I who ought to practice piano!!

No, Miller doesn’t seem to be a perfect human being!? But yes, maybe it’s important that our (and others) experiences are being noted!

Quote:
Steve wrote: Miller writes somewhere that she wanted to find the source of evil. If she didn't succeed--didn't hit the nail directly on the head and harder than anyone has before--I'll eat my hat. I understand that denial is essential to evil's survival, but the apparent lack of professional interest out there over the last several decades (with exceptions) about what she's written--well I guess I'm trying to decide if it's "depressing" or "hilarious"...


The society in large, in whole, seem to be in denial! Yes. I think it’s a backlash in society in a lot of ways…

Quote:
Steve wrote: How to best deal with and heal the effects of what we do and have already done to each other is a separate consideration. She has her own ideas, and as far I've seen they make as much or more sense than any others. But I don't exactly consider myself to 'have a dog in that fight' except that I'm not likely to say "Oh that's nice, whatever works" if a friend told me they'd gotten a new diagnosis and medication. Just want to make the point that why things are screwed up and how to unscrew the already screwed are to me two different things.


We have to deal with this the best we can!? Get inspired by others, even Miller there, maybe also make mistakes, and have to deal with them. Yes, these things could be prevented to a much higher degree and how do one unscrew people? But we have to start with ourselves first. And I think some people don’t want to be “unscrewed” either! Yes, understand more and more specifically why things are screwed up (if I understood you right?). Hmmm, I hope I am not too swift again, and spontaneous! You know “creative” people (convenient to blame!!??).

Quote:
Steve wrote: Which bring me to you goddam Vikings. Running all over, for centuriesharassing and conquering everybody you could find, very not-nice people by any definition, even though you already had cooler hats and boats than anybody. And my understanding is that all that aggression and meanness was blamed on the fact that you just were always running out of food (and land) because of all the babies you just for some reason couldn't figure out how to quit making.


Hmmm, yes, you can wonder over all that aggressiveness! No, I wasn’t because of lack of food – or land?? And I am not sure the Vikings had as many children as my great-grand parents?? In the latter’s case it was which came with all the children!? God was convenient to blame there!! But I think both these things are rooted in child-abuse! I have my small wonders about my grandmother, mom, and all ancestors…

Quote:
Steve wrote: So if it's true that even in the recent past large families were (or are?) the rule there, I'd just like to know what happened, how everything seemed to turn around 180 degrees in terms of aggression and meanness. Even in the U.S., areas heavily populated by Swedish immigrants are supposed to be among the lowest in crime and the "nicest" places to live. It doesn't make any sense. And I don't know, I suppose some of the scenery might be nice when there's light enough to see it, but "the Arctic Circle"?!? What do you get, maybe twenty-two seconds of daylight a day there in winter?! I don't know. Sorry sorry. It's none of my business.


Oh yes, you are entitled or allowed to wonder and ask!! I don’t mind at all. I think all these things are interesting too! How nice you say the Swedish immigrants are nice and not so aggressive!! I don’t know the answer to that. Let me think on it!!?? :)

It is very nice up there, with northern light! But the darkness is problematic! Then they made all those babies then from 1884 to 1905 I think? 17 on 21 years!! Here a picture from up there: http://reflektionerochspeglingar.blogsp ... gence.html

Quote:
Steve wrote: I'm just happy you learned English so well so that I could get this off my chest.


I am so glad you think so!! Sweet of you to say!

D.R.B., "reflektioner" means "reflections" in the meaning thougts or thinking, "och" means "and", and "speglingar" also means "reflections" but more in the meaning connected to mirrors (mirrorings?). Oh, what's called actually?

Hug
Karin


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 1:45 am 
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As you can see, I've started a new thread for this. I think therapy was never meant to heal the masses. It was invented to take the edge off from 'might-be deviants', or 'has-been deviants'. If someone has 'ordinary problems' such as depression, anxiety, low self-confidence, no way a doctor would send you to a therapist. Only if such a person pays (a lot) for therapy, he or she might find someone to listen. So who fills the gap in trying to heal these people with 'ordinary problems'? The pharmaceutical industry. And if people are not ill, they will invent diseases to make you ill, so they can sell you pills, and charge your insurance company. Instead of working and making fundamental changes in society, people are let to believe the problem lies in them, in their biological DNA or chemistry. Anything to keep the people in place and prevent them from taking back the power. Because let's face it, the world as it is now, is led by a powerful establishment of industrialists. And they won't give up their power freely. As a matter of act, they rather destroy the whole world first then to give up their wealth.

I also think that's it's true that mankind is just waking up from realizing what it has been doing and is doing with children and how this affects behavior. Dr. Phil was mentioned before, but don't forget that he was the first person on American network TV who announced it's dead wrong to spank your child. He got loads of criticisms for that. Now imagine someone like Alice Miller or Arthur Janov on national TV, saying that all discipline in child rearing is abuse. The ordinary folks wouldn't get that because it's too radical. They can't be woken up too radically. I remember I applied for a Dutch TV show in 1991 or 1992 about youth and racism. On the phone I explained that the main cause lies in child rearing and how a kid whose needs have been disrespected, will target weaker group to project his hatred on. Someone was listening but as soon as I mentioned that it was the parents' fault, they said they already had someone who would bring that up. Eventually, when I watched the show, no one brought up any word on any parent. Maybe it's time to start our own TV show?

Ingeborg Bosch was involved with a Dutch TV show, but I haven't seen it nor have I read a book by her. I did correspond with someone who had, and will look in her hand-written letters if I can find some interesting things.

Steve, if you've only read Miller's first books, do read her Banished Knowledge and Breaking Down the Wall of Silence (they're not as thick as her first), because in there she makes an even more radical step in explaining the roots of violence and mental illness. FYOG is a good book because it's a good introduction. Her first book, the original version, is intellectual mambo jumbo. It sold 1 million copies and there are hardly any psychologists and psychiatrists who don't have it on their bookshelf. Even Al Gore once admitted in an interview he was an admirer of Alice Miller. So go figure. Miller regretted writing that book but as it is still the book that sells best, she wrote a new after word to a later version, in which she stated that she no longer shares the opinions in that book and that she came to new insights in her later ones. But as DRB says, she apparently has re-written the whole book. So why hasn't the majority of the professionals entered the road that Miller laid? Because they have invested in a career in which they will not bite off the hand that feeds them. But I bet when these people hit the age of retirement, some of them will apologize and realize the mistakes they made.

Karin, good that you started another blog more specialized on child abuse. I think that this will be made more clear to the visitor. There's nothing to be ashamed of when speaking about it. Being spontaneous is also a wonderful quality. I know learning a new language or re-discovering it again is not easy. How I struggled and still struggle with Swedish! You also mentioned being afraid of people who attack bloggers. But remember to put such an 'attack' in the right context when you express yourself in writing. I wouldn't call it an attack. An attack is when someone wants to hit you with a stick or something. Maybe there's a parental voice in the background, threatening to punish a child who speaks up?

I think the reason why life is less violent in Sweden, is because they haven't been in war for 200 years. War creates a huge trauma in people's (and especially kids) lives. But also know that people in the north do drink a lot and the suicide rate is among the highest in the world. I've also read that Sweden had the highest divorce rate in the world. That didn't make much sense to me, until I realized it's because marriage is not so common here. Many couples are not married (Swedish has a great word for such a status: sambo) and can have the same status as a married one. I believe people who go through the farce of a wedding and its ceremonies are actually insecure about their relationship and seek some kind of external confirmation by throwing a lot of money around and claiming some oath. It's no surprise that such relationship is not a healthy one.

Dennis

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 5:14 pm 
Dennis wrote "They can't be woken up too radically," which is true. Is there a way to wake them up subtly? Possibly. Many people who don't think about these issues and stick with 'tradition' can be influenced by celebrities they admire. On a parenting blog someone linked to a list of notable British people who oppose spanking. There are more than 900 of them, and more than 500 organizations:

http://www.childrenareunbeatable.org.uk ... rters.html

There were more than twenty-five Bishops and Archbishops. The names of British Members of Parliament and university professors are mostly not so familiar to readers in other countries, but I recognized some names from Show Business and The Arts:

Helen Fielding, Writer (Bridget Jones's Diary)
Peter Gabriel, Musician
Jerry Hall (wife of Mick Jagger)
Mark Knopfler, Musician
John Lloyd, Film Director
Ken Loach, Film Director
Salman Rushdie, Writer
Roger Taylor, Musician
Emma Thompson, Actress

I don't know if "Roger Taylor" is Roger Andrew Taylor from Duran Duran or Roger Meddows-Taylor from Queen.

Among the university academics:

Professor Noam Chomsky, MIT
Professor Richard Dawkins
Professor Germaine Greer
Professor Steven Rose

From the list of academics one that surprised me was Professor Richard Dawkins, author of the The Selfish Gene. There were many more actors, but I didn't recognize all the names. If Project NoSpank, or some other organization, could get support from internationally famous American entertainers, and put them on a TV program to discuss the issue, they might influence a large number of viewers. Putting not-so-famous writers and therapists on TV doesn't attract such a big audience.

I think many people forget just how much the Lesbian & Gay community achieved through a massive publicity campaign. Before the 1980s famous people with that sexual orientation were fearful of being exposed. Now, in many walks of life, it doesn't ruin their careers. Homosexuality is no longer a category of mental disorder in the DSM. There used to be lots of prejudice against disabled people too, and that has changed to a large extent.

It's no good waiting for the majority of professionals to recognize the psychological consequences of spanking and child abuse. If you need proof, count how many psychiatrists and psychologists appear in the list. Both put together are outnumbered by Members of Parliament. Bishops outnumber psychiatrists. In the last 100 years all that has changed, theory-wise, is that the pedagogy of 'behaviorism' was replaced by blaming 'genetic predispositions'. By and large, it seems psychiatrists' brains are now owned and managed by Big Pharma.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 8:39 pm 
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Karin,

The Vikings had problems with overpopulation/too many children. This group may be interested--the little I know about 'psychohistory' makes me think that anyone even vaguely connected to that circle should or already does know about this: http://www.amazon.com/Discoverers-Danie ... 0394726251

The editorial review says "To call it a history of science is an understatement; this is the story of how humankind has come to know the world..." In my opinion, that is an understatement. Boorstin painted a clear picture of human nature itself while telling the story of how that 'normal' human mind has brought us to the present day. If you decide to have a look: it becomes intensely fascinating but really ain't pretty. His section on psychology is weak, my opinion, but even that would make sense if it's true that psychology is maybe only now about to escape the dark ages. I think he was only trying to be nice to psychologists by suggesting they possibly had made strides equal to their peers in other fields. Almost 800 pages. I probably never would have read it if I hadn't gone without Internet for a couple years. I read it three times, almost in a row. Has a fair amount on the Vikings, is the thing. I think my mother--who's father came from Viking-invaded Sicily--and Eric the Red's really mean daughter, Freydis, may be related. :shock:

Dennis,
Jeez. Do you think the world is "led"? I respect your anger. I think it's important to point to the rotten stuff that's out there. I think it's important to keep in mind what is causative and what is symptomatic.

I didn't know that Dr. Phil has said that spanking was dead wrong! I actually haven't seen that much of him but I never pictured him as a pioneer. Wow.



I'm sure there must be discussion about this somewhere else here, I can't imagine I'm the first person to have thought this by a long shot, but isn't "abuse" an unfortunate word all the way around? It implies there is a "correct" way to "use" children for one thing, so in that way it maintains the notion that it's acceptable to regard people as property. Beyond that it seems to always conjure in people's minds only the most extreme end of things. I think that's a problem. Wonderful a place to start setting things straight as ending the very worst might be, recognizing that all forms of disrespect lie on the same continuum is just as crucial in the long run. "Abuse" seems to mean only "newspaper-worthy/criminal-awful" to most people. "Angel" and her friends at Psych-Forums were obviously horrified that you suggested she was guilty of it. It frustrates me that I can't get friends, for instance, to recognize that "smaller" stuff is wrong and poisonous as well. I think I told the story here of burning my high school diploma in protest of the principal having bribed me and the rest of the "National Honor Society" with them: we'd finished school--but he sent us notes saying we would not receive them or graduate unless we kissed butt one last time and posed for a picture like good little boy and girls. Didn't faze anyone except me (not trying to imply I'm somehow special but what the heck maybe it's true). No one I've spoken with from that bunch even remembers it. If I haven't mentioned it, I left college without a degree (so I got nothin' to burn from that) when it became obvious that, more than anything was a matter of paying bribes. I don't know. Maybe shocking people with the truth that it's all "abuse" is a good strategy. I just wonder sometimes if "disrespect" or something similar might allow people to keep their ears open longer.

Breaking Down and Banished Knowledge are two I haven't read, Dennis. Gets confusing because at least a couple go by different titles but Untouched Key looks like probably another one. (I also loan them out practically immediately--and don't get them back--so I can't go to my shelf and look.) I do agree with you about Drama being just sort of a beginning, and it's frustrating that the few therapists I know (as friends, no kidding) have as you say, made themselves familiar with her only from that.

You talked about people hitting retirement. One guy I know--former high school classmate, fellow National Honor Society member--just retired (I think comfortably) from being an 'educator' in a state prison, at least one and I think two Masters degrees in Psychology, has worked also most of his life as a missionary. His wife works with a network of 'Internet Prayer Warriors'. I know this from a classmate group I kind of helped create, by accident, that was all about letting our masks drop a little, and for a while had been more fun than I can possibly describe. But when some kid out to buy himself a hamburger smashed into one of our classmates' cars, nearly killing her, this guy said "The Lord is reminding the rest of us how precious His gift of life is." When somebody else's aunt who in fact had gallstones had at first had been misdiagnosed with cancer, he had normally fairly reasonable people jumping up and down that they and Jesus and his wife's Internet Prayer Warriors had worked a miracle. I left the group when he said "Yes, Steve, our Thanksgiving blessing includes you, too." I did blast back in there a couple years later hitting them with everything I had about Miller (I'd been kind of going around doing that anyway), and addressing him directly suggested he might want to tell the group something about his childhood, but like with Angel's friends coming to her 'rescue', I only managed to get several 'new ones' reamed for my effort. (That's U.S. colloquial, Karin, don't worry about it.) He has never responded to me. I doubt that he does and I doubt that he'll ever change or "realize the mistakes". So far as I know no one in that group has said anything unmasked for a very long time. "God" is watching now, I guess.

I think alcoholism and suicide is a problem in Alaska too. I know it is in the Canadian province of Nunavut. It wasn't, for thousands of years, not til the missionaries came and straightened those people out. Just one hundred years from "Doing fine!" to "Oh god please just let me die!" Bastards. Really makes me angry.

Hate quitting when I feel like I'm on a roll. Lot left unaddressed. Gotta go. Thanks for your patience I know I've been wordy.

Steve


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