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Childhood trauma and its consequences
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 10:45 pm 
Steve,

I was about to log out after being writing almost since I came from work, hmmm... (Oh, how was this English??). I have copied your posting and am going to save it! Have swiftly skimmed it! :) I think you know more about the Vikings than I do!!?? :D I must study this! Interesting! But, hmmm, it was many hundred years since the Vikings walked here in Scandinavia. Maybe I have Viking-blood in my veins? I could contribute to this about tough men; I have two brothers you know... And other male relatives to relate to, but I won't do that now! Phew!! What a relief!? :) My brothers are training for Vasaloppet, the real skiing race. My youngest brother has been skiing it some years now, fairly well. Next year he turns 50. http://www.vasaloppet.se/wps/VasaCMS/ge ... /en/2.html

But he isn't very diligent I think...
But I am a bit too ambitious I think...

And colloquial :? , what's that? I don't mind at all if you write about things occurring in U.S. and Alaska etc. on the contrary,if it was that!?

Hug
Karin
PS. And I found a post from Dennis on Primal Therapy from January 8, I think, I hadn't seen earlier, and posts from D.R.B.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 2:12 pm 
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D.R.B.,
I'm no expert on Dawkins, but his concept of a "meme" to me seems to fit hand-in-glove with this issue. My (limited) understanding is that he means by this a kind of "mental gene"--the biological counterparts, he points out, carry the command "Copy me!" The mental ones are more like songs stuck in one's head but have a similar effect, spreading to those around them. If that's true (if I'm understanding correctly), it's no surprise that he'd recognize violence as a copyable, get-stuck-in-your-head self-spreading act, and oppose its use against children.

Chomsky's The Man, obviously, from how he blew away the Skinnerists in linguistics, proving We Don't Need No Education when it comes to learning to speak. I've read that he denies there's a link between his linguistic stuff and his pacifism, but I think he might just be standing too close to it to see.

Germaine Greer's pretty funny. ("Professor"?!)

Karin,
Those Ice Hotel pictures are beautiful. First thing I thought was "There's no place to throw cigarette butts!"

Steve


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 3:24 pm 
Steve, I'm no fan of Richard Dawkins so I don't know which of his ideas make sense.

Yes, Germaine Greer is a bit of an oddball. However, considering how many feminists told women to put their career aspirations before the needs of their children, it's reassuring to see her name on the list. Apparently, she is a professor of English Literature and Comparative Studies at the University of Warwick (in the UK).

I had never considered a link between Chomsky's linguistic stuff and his pacifism. An interesting idea.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 4:17 pm 
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DRB, that's indeed a long list of impressive supporters against child beating. It seems like the trend to ban corporal punishment is growing among countries. A few words about Noam Chomsky. He's an anarchist, admits he's an anarchist but he won't mention it so often, because of the many prejudice people have. All anarchists are against authoritarian abuse, including that of parents. So there's no surprise to me about his presence in that list. Ken Loach is a great director, I had planned to have his movie Sweet Sixteen up for downloads in the 'Film Club' sometime within the next months.

Steve, I agree that the word abuse doesn't cover it. My parents were usually shocked about cases of child abuse, but were oblivious about the damage they caused themselves. Parents do see their children as possession, yes. It usually starts by one or both of them saying: 'I want a child'. And with it they start forming all kinds of qualities the child should have, even before it's conceived yet. I want a girl. Or I want a boy. Or I hope he'll be good at ... etc. Does a future parent ever say: I want to be a parent for a child?
I use the word abuse in this forum because we know what it means but otherwise I seldom use that word. Not like Sinéad did in her interview. I prefer saying 'causing pain', because that's what it is. Why would anyone need to cause pain in anyone? As if there's a lack of pain in the world if all people would stop causing pain.

Miller's book Breaking Down the Wall of Silence used to be called Wall of Silence and her first book The Drama of the Gifted Child also goes under the title Prisoners of Childhood.

I've never managed to have a meaningful discussion with a dedicated Christian. It's like they play a role and wear a mask, and they have sworn to stick with that because of some belief in special treatment after they're dead. There's nothing authentic about them. Often they also are very rigid, as if they are acting on a stage. And if you shove all responsibility to some invisible almighty, you never have to really worry yourself.

Karin, how do you view sports in regard to what you know about child abuse?

Dennis

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Everything I write here is my opinion, not absolute truths but I don't want to start every sentence with in my opinion...


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 8:47 pm 
Quote:
Steve wrote: Those Ice Hotel pictures are beautiful. First thing I thought was "There's no place to throw cigarette butts!"


Karin: No, we are such a people!! Perfect! Almost as angels?? How boring that even may sound. (Now I can’t help being ironic). Liking the nature, the clean nature. Or at least I do, a lot. Because I am an angel even more than anyone, with no addictions of any kind: not smoking or drinking... (observe the irony).
Maybe my "addictions" lie on another level, a much more subtle?

Quote:
Dennis wrote: Karin, how do you view sports in regard to what you know about child abuse?


Karin: In fact I had a short discussion with a colleague today on that topic. I think it is horrible children are put in elite-training as early as they are today here. And that everything must be organized... Children are mush less concentrated today than they have been. They have too much to do. And some years ago they found that 12-13 year old children have beginning arteriosclerosis. The only reason to this they could think of was stress.

Young people behave as we grown ups, rushing around like mad. But young people have opportunities we didn’t have, to learn dancing for instance. My feeling is more of a gut-feeling against this; against phenomena in sports, so I am not sure I can verbalize it just like that. Maybe I have to think on this more, where I really stand in this.

Some initial thought though: young people try to be the best to get their parents “love”? Or to rebel and show that they really are worth something, want and/or need to show their parents this? The Swedish cross country skier Pär Elofsson is an example of an athlete training too hard. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Per_Elofsson

You wrote about bullying in school in another thread. For the first time we music-school-teachers joined “elevvårds-“meetings (students care-meetings) for the students at the aesthetic-program at the high school (gymnasium in Swedish) this fall, that was very interesting… To see and hear how they are handling things. It felt as we can contribute with valuable things as we meet the students one by one mostly, and thus have a closer and nearer relation with the young persons than the other teachers have.

Hmmm, it feels as I would like to go into hibernation… Disappear and lick my wounds… From everything...

That about sports again: I grew up with five siblings, and we have really different interests… The fourth and fifth sibling in line, a brother and a sister, was very good at sports at school. That sister’s husband and kids are very sports interested. First and foremost in football.

Sport wasn’t my thing. Something happened when I was between 6 and 10… And this must have been preceded by something I am sure. Somewhere in that age I got scared for some things… For doing somersaults all of a sudden, get the head under water when I am swimming, I can’t dive. A bit handicapping, or in fact it was very handicapping. Instead I danced and rode horses… And we had a hobby-farm, so I have tried some “farming”… So it wasn't lack of all physical prerequisites?? I am that strong Northerner, with a very tired smile... Healthy, blushing cheeks, short but strong... (disgusting).

Our parents were no sport-fantasts at all. So it’s strange we have the interests we have, because for me it is important to use my body too… The students at the Conservatory in the town I live are lousy in visiting their sports-lessons, I think they have always been…

I guess there can be parallels to music, and high ambitions here... I think I rebelled against all this somewhere in the teens...

Per Elofsson got a sort of burn-out and quited skiing. Ingeborg Bosch writes in her book "Rediscovering The True Self" at page 249 about burn-out:

Quote:
These symptoms much resemble what could be the result of false hope; to keep on trying to accomplish something that cannot be accomplished.


Kain


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 3:33 pm 
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My Swedish begins and ends with the word "fartlek". Wikipedia says it means "speed play" but my very successful track coach told me (a very long time ago) it was developed by somebody Swedish who had spent time watching children playing--unsupervised--just doing what they naturally do--doing what they wanted when they wanted to do it. And it works goddammit! (It's also the only way possible to make running alone at all interesting.) So get off those kids' butts! Let them just be how they are! Dumb idiot grownups!!

Steve


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 6:03 pm 
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D.R.B.

You're right I think about feminism having taking a misstep or two along the way. Assertive feminine voices however I think are and will continue being indispensable when it comes to securing respect for kids. I don't think kids' rights could be happening without womens' rights happening first. From what I know of her, I think Germaine can be counted on to do right. Wasn't surprised to see her name on that list.

Steve


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 9:30 pm 
A leader writer in a local newspaper wrote about school-politics in Sweden and our school minister (I dislike him, or his politics, from deep in my heart) and about “Homo Ludens”. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_Ludens

Searched further about homo ludens and found that it was a book written by the Dutch historian Johan Huizinga http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johan_Huizinga. Did I read right? My speed is enormous!!?? :?

Here is an except (or the whole book?) http://books.google.se/books?id=ALeXRMG ... il#PPA4,M1

Wrote two blogposts about homo ludens and wanted to add a picture, thought of the Swedish child-book author Astrid Lindgren http://reflektionerochspeglingaralicemi ... enial.html , and also found that she has said (which I knew somewhere):
Quote:
I write for the child in me.


Karin


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 8:52 pm 
I just wanted to share this. But was a little unsure of where, in what thread…

I quite recently got an email from a person in US asking me about my experiences on ourchildhood.int, how it felt when I got rejected. I had almost pushed it away I think and have had a lot of other thoughts in my head and very hectic at work, but this together with a lot of other things stirred up a lot of thoughts and emotions (my youngest sister is newly operated, a friend and former colleague died suddenly in a bleeding in the brain only 46 years old, it has been a lot at work...).

The person who wrote and asked about ourchildhood (also former member, but not rejected, I don’t know if he is still subscribed, but don’t think he writes to the list any longer) was worried about a woman who got rejected (before my time at the list) whom he has contact with now. He wrote something that made me ask how many more he knew of who had been rejected. And he replied that he knew of four more - women. Who had felt more or less bad after their experiences too.

I mentioned this to a friend, female (from Sweden), who was subscriber when I subscribed to the list. She answered to what I told her, something in this style:
Quote:
“That ourchildhood-list! Looks more and more like bad therapy!!! One starts to wonder who still remains there, who are allowed to be there? Allowed to stay on it. And how does it feel for those who are still there – who have the demand to accommodate so hard [as it seems as people have to] for not being thrown out. Because what sort of strange sect-like thing does this become if everything is so strict and implacable?”

It’s a luck I had the contacts I had after that experience!? Where to turn and complain? I got the opportunity to tell a person who knew what had occurred on the list during my time there, and what sort of contacts I had had… I never took any initiatives to contacts with any other member. Only wrote to BobS off-list…

When I was in the middle of it it felt as if I would want to warn people for how it was, what could happen... Wanted to protect and rescue people!?

Karin

Hmmm, I wonder if I should seek a place at the college here and read English?? I wonder if I have that time, working full-time... I would really want to improve my school-English from 30 years ago... It would be fun...


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