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Childhood trauma and its consequences
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 6:36 pm 
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For a nickel I'd risk being hunted down and flogged by Random House for doing it, but I don't know how to set up a PayPal account. Anyhow, typing in pages 204-217 of The Discoverers ("The Wandering Vikings") is probably worth more than that and I shouldn't settle so cheap. Going quickly through parts of it this morning however suggests that the demise of the Vikings may be due to a combination of: adverse climate change (beginning 1200), Russia and England out-competing them with their furs and woolen goods, walrus ivory being increasingly seen as inferior, and a bad case of Black Death.

Here's a short section that has nothing to do with the discussion but which I copied out some time ago just because I thought it made a great story:


After that first winter came summer. It was now the Vikings made acquaintance with the Skraelings [natives: Indians or Eskimos], when a big body of men appeared out of the forest there. Their cattle were close by; the bull began to bellow and bawl his head off, which so frightened the Skraelings that they ran off with their packs, which were of grey furs and sables and skins of all kinds, and headed for Karlsefni’s house, hoping to get inside there, but Karlsefni had all the doors guarded. Neither party could understand the other’s language. Then the Skraelings unslung their bales, untied them, and proffered their wares, and above all wanted weapons in exchange. Karlsefni, though, forbade them the sale of weap­ons. And now he hit on this idea; he told the women to carry out milk to them, and the moment they saw the milk that was the one thing they wanted to buy, nothing else. So that was what came of the Skraelings’ trading: they carried away what they bought in their bellies, while Karlsefni and his comrades kept their bales and their furs. And with that they went away.

When the Skraelings returned, the Vikings had no plan either for trading with them or for subduing them. The Skraelings happened to covet pieces of the Vikings’ red cloth, for which they would exchange their best unblemished skins and gray fur pelts. “When the cloth began to run short they [the Vikings] cut it up so that it was no broader than a fingerbreadth, but the Skraelings gave just as much for it, or more.”

Then one day there came a sudden attack by “a great multitude of Skraeling boats.” The Skraelings stormed the Viking camp, swinging their battle staves “anti-sunwise” (there was not yet any “anti-clockwise”), yelling and showering missiles from their war slings. What most terrified the brave Vikings was the Skraelings’ primitive buzz bomb. When the Skraelings launched this ball-shaped object (probably a blown-up moose bladder), fearless Freydis, Leif Ericsson’s sister, daughter of Eric the Red, came out-of-doors and saw how the Vikings had taken to their heels. “Why are you running from wretches like these?” she cried. “Such gallant lads as you, I thought for sure you would have knocked them on the head like cattle. Why, if I had a weapon, I think I could put up a better fight than any of you!”

They might as well not have heard her. Freydis was anxious to keep up with them, but was rather slow because of her pregnancy. She was moving after them into the forest when the Skraelings attacked her. She found a dead man in her path, Thorbrand Snorrason—he had a flat stone sticking out of his head. His sword lay beside him; she picked it up and prepared to defend herself with it. The Skraelings were now making for her. She pulled out her breasts from under her shift and slapped the sword on them, at which the Skraelings took fright, and ran off to their boats and rowed away. Karlsefni’s men came up to her, praising her courage.

The Skraeling threat, reinforced by a creature they described as a hopping “uniped” who shot poisoned arrows, drove these Vikings out of Newfound­land and back to Greenland. There Freydis organized what proved to be the final Viking expedition to Vinland. Arriving slightly ahead of Freydis, two Icelandic brothers, Helgi and Finnbogi, had promptly occupied Leif’s house. When she arrived in Vinland, the brothers explained that they expected to share the house with Freydis’ crew. But she dispossessed them and taunted her husband with cowardice.

He could not endure this baiting of hers. He ordered his men to turn out immediately and take their weapons, which they did, and crossed straightway to the brothers’ house and marched in on the sleeping men, seized them and bound them, and led them outside, each man as he was bound. And Freydis had each man killed as he came out. Now all the men were killed, but the women were left, and no one would kill them. “Hand me an axe,” said Freydis. Which was done, and she turned upon the five women they had there, and left them dead. Freydis seized the brothers’ possessions, which she distributed among her crew to persuade them not to reveal her crimes.

Early the next spring in the brothers’ ship Freydis and her party sailed back to Greenland. They gave out the story that the brothers had decided to remain behind. Leif tortured three of her crew to learn the truth. He still did not have the heart to punish his own sister, but he laid a curse on her and all her offspring, which seems to have had some effect. By the year 1020 the Viking settlements, the first recorded European settlements in America, left history and entered the domain of the archaeologists.


Looks to me like the entire book is available as a free download in .pdf (with a 90 day time limit though) here: http://www.ebookee.com/The-Discoverers_146031.html
Most Viking references in it (including one to a Viking nicknamed "The Children's Man" because he refused to run little kids through with his lance) are, again, on pp. 204-217.

Steve


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 9:47 pm 
Thanks for the link! I downloaded the file and converted it to a HTML document to bypass the 90 day time limit. It will make fascinating reading. The section you referred to is around 6,300 words long. If another forum patron requests it, and Dennis has no objection to © stuff, I can post it as a new topic.

Steve wrote:
the demise of the Vikings may be due to a combination of: adverse climate change (beginning 1200), Russia and England out-competing them with their furs and woolen goods, walrus ivory being increasingly seen as inferior, and a bad case of Black Death.

The account I read mentioned all those things except the Black Death. It said the deteriorating climate prevented them from making enough hay to feed all the animals through the icy winters. So the herds dwindled until all of them were gone.

That Freydis sounds like a fiesty gal with a short fuse.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 9:54 pm 
Steve,

Spontaneously, triggered by your last posting; here some pictures from two Swedish museums (taken with a cellphone camera and not edited at all, something I don't manage by the way yet). The first from Östersund and amuseum called Jamtli (as I visited during New Year): http://picasaweb.google.com/kamsi25/Jam ... 6990765106 And then the museum in the town where I live: http://picasaweb.google.com/kamsi25/AMu ... 1438008130 and at last from Vuollerim in the north of Sweden (stone-age, 6000 years back): http://picasaweb.google.com/kamsi25/Vuo ... 4729927634 (it's not my kids!! :-) But a male cousin's). Here my whole on line photo-album (see Frösö church, Gammelstad and a Christmas Market, all these about our history or connecting to it)!!

I am a bit tired, so I am going to reply to earlier postings later, have started to write, but thought I shouldn't answer as spontaneously as I have done. Phew!

Just before lunch I got the message that a friend and former colleague, only 46 years, had died in a bleeding in the brain. He was rehearsing in Stockholm when it happened on Tuesday, and died yesterday. Jazz-pianist. he lived in Dalsland, near Gothenburg.

I have to practice too before I go to bed. Am going to rehearse with five students tomorrow and really need to play... Even if I would want to relax now.

Hug
Karin


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 6:29 am 
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Karin,

Those were beautiful pictures! I'm stunned too that cell phones are delivering that kind of high quality. But thanks, was a very nice little trip. I liked the one too, you linked to the other day--one of a Viking boat with the bow scrolling back over it.

So sorry about your friend's death. It seems like there's never anything that can be said when something like that happens.

But back to the Vikings, I'd still like to understand how or why the people who didn't go around marauding, anyway, would be or become so apparently unlike those who did. Can't be the introduction of Christianity--the Vikings that landed in Normandy were given the place--without even having to fight--just for agreeing to become Christian. Then within a generation or so they crossed the channel and conquered England--and 'civilized' or not, corporal punishment has been and continues to be a serious problem there.

Steve


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 9:36 am 
Steve,
In a hurry here to work: yes, a lot of questions and threads are brought up here that have triggered a lot of wonders and thoughts... In the middle of a fairly hectic work-period with two concerts near. These things are working in the back(?)-head.
My whole on line album was here (I didn't link it): http://picasaweb.google.com/kamsi25
I am not on any of those pictures... I don't like being photographed of some reason.
Hug
Karin


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 1:09 am 
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I've to admit I'm not really interested in the history of the Vikings. I've always prioritized my own history over that of others, but if there's anything worth mentioning in the context of child-rearing, you can post it without the worry of copyright.

Karin wrote:
I don’t know if my family is an exception, but there the ties are very tight! Depends on what you mean with strong ties?? If you are much tied up I get a feeling you are less autonomous? And that isn’t so good for the health or for a lot of other things?


I wrote this in the context of suicide. Having a controlling family is not a healthy thing, but at least a person has the feeling that he's wanted (wanted for the wrong things, but still), which could influence a decision of committing suicide or not. Generally speaking, the Swedes are pretty reserved and quite individualistic. I've heard this from every immigrant I've spoken with. Karin, how would you describe your family ties as being 'very tight'.

Dennis

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Everything I write here is my opinion, not absolute truths but I don't want to start every sentence with in my opinion...


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 7:36 am 
Dennis, thanks for your feedback about posting © material. I figured I wouldn't post 2 whole chapters unless someone else expressed an interest. And by 'forum patrons' I meant registered members or guests. The real relevance here isn't in the detail of Viking history, but to find out what transformed Scandinavians from Europe's most brutal people many centuries ago to Europe's most active in supporting childrens' rights in the last 50 years.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 3:00 pm 
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Dennis wrote: Karin, how would you describe your family ties as being 'very tight'.

I think I need more time to write about this...
Not wanting to take up a lot of space here I have written about the things we have discussed in this thread here: http://reflektionerochspeglingaralicemi ... other.html

And I have saved replies to you in a document. I think I need to read it a little more carefully before I post it (if I am going to post it at all).
In a hurry here.

Karin


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 6:53 pm 
Steve,

I just wanted to tell you that I have just ordered a book called Viking-life (“Vikingaliv” in Swedish) from my book-club. See: http://www.clio.se/cgi-bin/db2www/clio_ ... 207&view=1 (new, or came 2007) Written by two historians here in Sweden.

In the information about the book it stood: Were the Viking robbers actually mercenary-soldiers? And the authors have investigated or just written about the findings on the vomen’s roles for instance in the colonisation of North America (Newfoundland).

Apropos robbers I also suddenly came to thin of the child-book “Ronia the Robber’s Daughter” by Astrid Lindgren!! Do you know about it? Have you read it? About two rivalling robber gangs, under two men (and fathers!!) with strict principles, so strict so they almost lost their children! Or at least Ronia’s father almost lost his daughter (not by death though). And Ronia’s mother got so upset and tired over her husband, but she had no real say in anything…
See here: http://www.astridlindgren.se/eng/index_1024.htm
Quote:
An excerpt from the book, taken from Astrid Lindgren's site: On the night that Ronia was born a thunderstorm was raging over the mountains, such a storm that all the goblinfolk in Matt's Forest crept back in terror to their holes and hiding places. Only the fierce harpies preferred stormy weather to any other and flew, shrieking and hooting, around the robbers' stronghold on Matts mountain. Their noise disturbed Lovis, who was lying within, preparing to give birth, and she said to Matt, "Drive the hell-harpies away and let me have some quiet. Otherwise I can't hear what I'm singing!"

The fact was that Lovis liked to sing while she was having her baby. It made things easier, she insisted, and the baby would probably be all the jollier if it arrived on earth to the sound of a song. Matt took his crossbow and shot off a few arrows through one of the arrow slits of the fort. Be off with you, harpies!" he shouted. "I'm going to have a baby tonight - get that into your heads, you hags!"

"Ho, ho, he's going to have a baby tonight," hooted the harpies. "A thunder-and-lightning baby, small and ugly it'll be, ho, ho!"

Then Matt shot again, straight into the flock, but they simply jeered at him and flew off across the treetops, hooting angrily.

While Lovis lay there, giving birth and singing, and while Matt quelled the wild harpies as best he could, his robbers were sitting by the fire down in the great stone hall, eating and drinking and behaving as rowdily as the harpies themselves. After all, they had to do something while they waited, and all twelve of them were waiting for what was about to happen up there in the tower room. No child had ever been born in Matt's Fort in all their robber days there.

Noddle-Pete was waiting most of all.

'That robber baby had better come soon," he said. "I'm old and rickety, and my robbing days will soon be over. It would be fine to see a new robber chief here before I'm finished."
He had scarcely stopped speaking when the door opened and Matt rushed in, quite witless with delight. He raced all the way around the hall, leaping high with joy and shrieking like a madman.

"I've got a child! Do you hear me - I've got a child!"

"What sort of child is it?' asked Noddle-Pete over in his corner.

"A robber's daughter, joy and gladness!" shouted Matt. "A robber's daughter - here she comes!"


Hug
Karin


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 6:56 am 
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Hi Karin,

I just learned that "ctrl+w" instantly closes my browser. Had been finishing a reply and meant to push "ctrl+z" to undo a mistake. Went incredibly off the mark, some reason. Now I need to get off the machine so I'll have to write even worse. No, I missed Ronia altogether. My second childhood probably isn't too far off so maybe I'll get a chance to catch up. If she's half as great as Pippi she'll be worth the read. That reminds me: two major TV network crime shows in the US last week directly recognized the effects of child abuse. One, "Criminal Minds", basically showed straight out how "repetition compulsion" comes back to haunt even the innocent. The other--I actually forget the name--depicted a sexual abuse survivor desperately trying to keep her own daughter out of the hands of her father--the perpetrator. She'd been dismissed as "mentally ill" when she'd first accused him of her own abuse, and had been forced underground.

Steve


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 11:27 am 
Steve,

Oh no, now I have to write again!! :) What a pity the text got lost!? When I put on the TV after I had written the last posting here (to see a TV-concert actually with a Russian violinist Maxim Vengerov http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxim_Vengerov ) I came right into the Swedish movie "Ronia the Robber's Daughter" (from 1984 I think, so it was old!!). I got so surprised so I almost fell off the chair (no, actually not!!). So I went on seeing the rest of the film instead of the music-program. Ronia and Birk (the boy and son to the other gang-leader Bork) refused to become robber's!!! :D So it wasn't a new robber that was born as as Matt, the father, thought! Haha!! Bith Ronia and Birk rebelled against their fathers!! They wanted to live peacefully!? And with each others!!?

And when Ronia declared to her father that she should move from home her father got really upset!! But at last he accepted it and realized that he could live closer to his wife now??? So in the end he was quite satisfied!(or???).

Yes, hope you have come to a second childhood!?? :) Or have the child in you!?

And I actually printed the text out about the Vikings you cut in here and skimmed - at last!! What a woman she was that Freydis (was it?)!!! So it wasn't only the men who were cruel??

On Lindgren's site it stands that Lindgren has said that she writes for the child in her!

I read certain child-books with joy still!! Such as Emil, Pippi and Ronia. You can with good books?? And I use to give my nephews and niece books for presents! The oldest nephew (now 21) sid when he was small: "I know what Karin has bought!!! A Pettson-book" http://www.pettson.gammafon.se/ He and his sister have had (and still has) reading-problems, but they like reading!! I am so glad for that.

Hmmm, was this entirely out of topic? I.e. child-abuse...

Karin


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 4:10 pm 
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Karin,

The lost text was mainly about a flock of crows I'd watched Saturday evening. The harpies seemed a lot like that.

Around here "second childhood" is meant to be kind of comically demeaning, is associated with older people doing foolish things. I more or less resolved early on to try hard not to "grow up" in the first place, because I was certain life was meant to be enjoyed and adults seemed miserable, almost all of them, including those who pretended they weren't. Seemed pretty clear to me that imitating artificial, self-important people wasn't the way to really feel good about being alive. Not sure how successful I was, probably not very, but I don't exactly believe there's an "inner child" in me. I think there's "just" me in me. I think probably everyone is forced to put on masks from time to time, depending on who they're interacting with and what they're trying to accomplish. I also realize that I know very little and for that reason and like too many other "grownups", I have no business telling anybody else "what's what". Weird, because at the same time keeping my mouth shut sometimes just ain't easy! :D

Looks like all that is known about Freydis comes from two sources: Eiríks saga rauða and Grœnlendinga saga .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freydis

Yes, we're mostly off topic. (Uh-oh!)

Steve

"In age, talk; in childhood, tears." --Hopi saying (Native American people)


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 9:44 pm 
Steve,

Now back from work. I thought further on that about the child inside, first at a walk before lunch and further during the day, working with children actually!!! And two teens! And I had to write a blogpost about it too!!

Pippi Longstocking didn't want to grow up either... :) Yes, that about masks...

When I parked my car I thought for myself with a sigh, I certainly don't feel grown up or as an authority!! A woman with a lot of experiences (in my work!)... What, me?? But I guess I have... I have problems with that. A grown up child!!?? Not a real adult it felt. And I just sighed. Deeply...

I both want to be taken seriously and not?? Afraid of demands?? Demands to live up to things?

When I have done things at work, or actually outside work, I haven't told anyone at work about it. Think if they came and listened to me!!

I am short, only 159 cm... And I thought of other things that maybe puts me on a level more of my pupils. And when I "climbed" over a lot of snow crossing the road back after the walk today I came to think of my oldest nephew (He turned 21 December 18) when he was a baby and laid on a blanket on a floor (abandoned by his mom - and dad I think, at his paternal grandmothers home in another part of this country, my sisters relation to her mother in law was tense), when I lay myself down beside him and put my cheek on the blanket near him and looked at him I got a smile in response that melted my heart! And his eyes started to glitter, he lifted his head and the arms and legs started to wave. it felt as he reacted to the environment, as if he was cut off!!?

And I could also see a small girl I think if someone gave her attention, real attention... If someone had had??

Yes, I also thought about older people and their second childhoods!! :) And no, don't keep your mouth shut!! :)

And at work I have done many "tough" things, managed both this and that, but I want to hold a low profile... Of some reason. My "master" is piano and my minor is church-organ, but I have been musician in one of the bigger churches here during a whole Christmas, with the whole church full and the church-choir on the organ loft.

Now I am very off-topic!!

I look forward getting that book about the Vikings!! And I ordered three more books, one about social intelligence... I am a bit skeptical though that one can learn such things from outside so to say...

Karin

PS. I saw I had written "has" when it should be have; the meaning was they have I think!!?? I am going to check that with Freydis now, the name is familiar too me...


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 5:42 am 
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Karin,

I don't know the real name for them, but those first 'recognition-smile' moments like you had with your nephew are unforgettable. I've seen one: my son smiling and glittering like that at his mother. He was already at least six weeks old, had spent most of that time in the hospital--was born early at 1.7 kilos (did I say it right?) We had him home then, she was rocking him and singing. I saw him focus on her face and then he suddenly let loose with that smile and the eyes. Like you, she melted. I felt left out a little, because he never looked over at me that time, but it was absolutely uplifting to watch.

I wonder if Vikings had rocking chairs.

It's hard to say what qualifies as a "real" adult, don't you think? It seems awfully subjective to me, except for the biological end. And the legal end, which is only based on the number of times you've been around the block. What else is there? I don't know about you, but I'm the same exact guy I was when I was four. Really. I look different, and I can say "ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny" pretty good now, but so what? Oh I suppose my endocrine system is geared a little different, maybe, but so what again? There has always seemed something egotistical to me about the word "mature". It's a whole 'nother discussion, I know it and I'm sorry. But just out of high school I read Huxley's idea that many people model themselves into or are trained and educated into being "characters of fiction". I thought then and still think that he was on the mark. I think from that standpoint it's more accurate to say that we have "outer adults"--just masks--than it is to say we have "inner children". There's who you are and always have been and will be until the day you die, there's who you pretend you are, and that's IT. No fact just opinion. Or something.

Do you have modern player pianos there, the kind that run from floppy discs or CDs?

Steve


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 11:19 am 
Steve,
Oh, that you were left out... :( :) Yes, no I am not sure they had rocking chairs then. Later people had and still have. My grandmother used to sit in a rocking chair watching TV. That made her relax?? I have read somewhere that rocking-chairs have a calming effect or something!!! But I think they rocked their children.That they had cradles for their children, in different shapes, hanging from the ceiling?
No, its more "adequate" to talk about masks then "inner children"??

But I don't know, I think I have changed during the years?? But maybe you are more "mature" :) to realize we haven't actually or only marginally!!?? :D That we haven't actually changed since we were 4? But I have memories from when I was in that age I think. I, lived here then (lived there from I was born, till I was 6, 5 and we were four siblings, the fifth on its way): http://reflektionerochspeglingar.blogsp ... 0gymnasium

And that child on the blanket and in its mothers arms smiling... I see (or sense I hope) the child suddenly feeling there is some sort of communication, a more real and genuine?? I want to hope it is like that at least... I can see that eagerness in myself, so middle age I am, when I feel there s a real, genuine communication, when I feel I get response!!!!?? Or what I feel is communication?? Whether I truly get it or have it or not? And maybe push people away where I get response...

And I also suddenly wondered if I don't have different sides in me (not that I am really splintered in different person I hope!?), the eager, girlish with blushing cheeks, the one standing with both feet on the ground, angry and with flaming eyes as yesterday evening before I went home from work when I spoke with a female colleague (who was fairly and irritated over how it is, she was angry at he companion,a he, that she felt had abandoned her, even though she likes him!!!), and I also have a competent side (i some people's eyes I am probably seen as an authority and met with respect, especially from parents seeing how I am working, but I feel very ambivalent to this side) etc. My colleague had the impression I am very effective in my work, in a positive sense it felt!! What?? Do they see that?? Yes, I am very passionate in what I do and am engaged in??? So Swede I am!!!

But hey, Steve, what do you think about us here?? We are no Vikings anymore! And no stone-age people! Hey! :D I guess we have all those modern things as you have!? Actually we have, for instance, a piano studio at my work-place with four digital pianos and an acoustic piano for ensemble-playing (and group-lessons) for our pupils/students. We have synths and keyboards of all different kinds (but we prefer practicing on acoustic instruments not least we ourselves). Writing music with Finale http://hos.sandnet.se/dunker/startsida.htm (which I have tried, it was fun, and result looked good, the aestetic means a lot to me even if you maybe not see it, but I had problems downloading it on my computer and haven't had time to do anything more about it) and doing recordings with computers, mini-discs etc.!!! And actually, now I found a site I shall link in my blog!! About Finale!!

And to come back to the original topic: how the Vikings could turn to a people banning corporal punishment (and not being in war for 200 years)!!?? Did people somewhere rebel against cruel behaviors like Ronia and Birk did??

Hear you! Now I must take a shower and the bike to the store and maybe also take a walk!?
Karin


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