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Childhood trauma and its consequences
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 10:44 pm 
On the Children's ombudsman's site you can read about the Corporal Punishment Ban. http://www.bo.se/Adfinity.aspx?pageid=90 There it stands:
Quote:
"Corporal punishment was first banned in the Swedish grammar schools in 1927.

Similar legislation was passed for elementary schools in 1958 and banned totally in 1962 in the Education Act. By 1966, parents and those responsible for children were forbidden from hitting their children.

A corporal ban Ten years later, a decision in a court case concerning a father assaulting his three-year-old daughter was widely discussed. The case initiated a number of private member´s bills in the Swedish parliament concerning the need for an explicit prohibition of chastisement, but it wasn’t until 1979 that the Swedish Parliament adopted a bill, with 256 MPs voting for and 6 MPs voting against. The arguments against were that the proposal was unnecessary and even dangerous.

By removing the rights for parents to chastise the child, many well-meaning parents would be stamped as criminals and many children would never learn to behave. But one of the MPs said; 'In a free democracy like our own, we use words as arguments, not blows. We talk to people and do not beat them. If we can´t convince our children with words, we shall never convince them with violence'.

This has become a rather famous statement in Sweden and one, of which it is not very easy to oppose. The ban is now an act within Chapter 6 in the Parenthood and Guardianship Code, which expressively forbids physical punishment and degrading treatment. 'Children are entitled to care, security and a good upbringing. Children are to be treated with respect for their person and individuality and may not be subjected to corporal punishment or any other humiliating treatment.'

The Criminal Code The Code of Parenthood and Guardianship in which one finds the law against chastising children is a civil law as opposed to the Criminal code. This means that the prohibition to use corporal punishment is not in itself sanctioned. It´s the Criminal Code that decides whether or not an offence has been committed, but also that it is judged under the same rules which apply when adults commits acts of physical violence to adults or other people´s children.

The Criminal Code states that anyone who causes another person physical injury, illness or pain or other harmful condition is to be convicted to a fine or prison up to two years. (Up to ten years if the crime is to be considered as severe, for example if the victim is a child).

When comparing figures from other countries, including the Nordic countries, we find that corporal punishment towards children is lower in Sweden. This seems above all to concern less serious and average forms of corporal punishment whilst more serious forms, such as blows with a blunt object may still be as common as in other Nordic countries.

Shifts in attitude We know that there has been a shift in attitude and opinion in Sweden on corporal punishment and that it started even before the law was effective. The Swedish Institute for Statistics has regularly investigated attitudes in the population towards corporal punishment.

In 1965, 53% were positive towards corporal punishment of children, 1968-42%, 1971-35%, 1981-26% and 1994-11%.

Hence, today in Sweden probably less than 10% are positive to the use of corporal punishment. The younger population is much less in favour of using physical punishment than elder generations. This shows that the ban is widely supported and well known in Sweden even amongst young children.

In 1979, a special brochure was sent out to every household in the country, explaining the anti spanking ban and how to bring up children with other methods than physical punishment. The brochure was translated into several different languages.

Statistics prove that corporal punishment as a way of upbringing has substantially decreased. When comparing figures in interviews with parents between the years 1980 and 2000, the results show, that corporal punishment has decreased significantly, especially in regard to striking a child with ones fist, with a blunt object or giving the child a so called 'good hiding'.

The figures are in accordance with results from two other studies on intermediate-level pupils and twenty year-olds submitted by the Parliamentary Committee against Abuse towards Children. This means, that forceful corporal punishment, which may potentially harm the child, also has decreased significantly.

On the other hand, concerning serious and unusual forms of corporal punishment, such as threats or the use of knives or firearms, the level shows no decrease. One reason could be, that malignant forms of corporal punishment, most often is part of a strong deviant behaviour in the adult as a result of mental illness or a case of abnormality or flaw in the character- personality features which are probably very little affected by general changes of attitude in society.

Uncertainty As more and more people tend to report child abuse, it has become somewhat confusing as to whether child abuse in Sweden in reality has increased during the last decades. We know that much of the violence, which was 'invisible' in the past, now has come out into the open, but thanks to education, information about the anti-spanking law and the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, awareness has increased in society concerning children’s needs and violence towards children.

Today, institutions like schools and day-care centres including professional groups, which come into contact with children, have a mandatory obligation to report if they consider that a child is at risk and in need of support from the social welfare system. The conclusion therefore, is that the increase of reports of child abuse is an effect of increased awareness, rather than an increase of actual violence towards children.

Complex area This is a complex area that has to be put in its right context. The issue of child abuse and neglect is not only relevant to changes in legislation, but also to the changes in society that have occurred, during more than twenty years of existing legislation.

There are groups of children who are deprived and in vulnerable situations and families where child abuse and neglect is more or less a constant element. These kinds of families will probably occur in any society regardless of corporal punishment bans."


Steve, you wondered over our history; with the Vikings, the brutal robbers, traveling around the world frightening the life out of people... And now the change to the so seemingly peaceful Swedes...

No, Sweden hasn't been in war the last 200 years as Dennis pointed out... But we are said to be more suicidal than many other people. I don't know if this is true actually. But if so, why?

Things I think are grounded in child-rearing-practices. Are we more self-blaming? More prone to self-blame, what Ingeborg Bosch calls the Primary defence?

And the truth about the Vikings?? Somewhere I had a feeling they weren’t quite as brutal, or that only some were. So I searched on this when you mentioned it, but haven’t had time to o more of it. At the Historiska Museum in Stockholm site http://www.historiska.se/home/exhibitions/vikings/ it stands:
Quote:
“The Vikings are possibly best known as brutal robbers. Today there are many pictures and stories about the Vikings. They describe how they travelled around the world frightening the life out of people. This is not the true story of the Vikings.
The Vikings were mostly peaceful traders. However, most of the people who lived in the Nordic Countries during this period were not Vikings. They were farmers, hunters and craftsmen. The exhibition does include weapons, but it also includes thousands of objects which give a different picture, telling the story of everyday activities, religious beliefs and family life.”

In this program http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/vikings/ they talk about
Quote:
“…a new, less barbarian image of the Norsemen based on recent archaeological investigations.”

Quote:
“Who Were the Vikings? http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/vikings/who.html
For centuries—indeed, ever since Viking raiders savagely attacked England's Lindisfarne monastery in A.D. 793—the Vikings have seemed to many to have been little more than blue-eyed barbarians in horned helmets. But archeological investigations of Viking sites stretching from Russia to Newfoundland have revealed a more human (if not altogether humane) side to the Viking character./…/
William Fitzhugh, curator in the Department of Anthropology at the Smithsonian's National Museum of Natural History, says the Vikings were far from simply brutish barbarians in horned helmets.”

Two more sites about the Vikings; The Viking Museum in Lofoten, Norway, http://www.lofotr.no/engelsk/index.htm and “Vikings – the North Atlantic Saga”.http://www.mnh.si.edu/vikings/start.html

Karin


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 7:28 am 
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Hi Karin,

To the Vikings: as much as anything I was just playing to have brought them up. It does seem funny since Scandinavians today I think are thought of as mostly fun-loving bobsledders... I think your reference to large families is what made me think of the Vikings. They sure had no monopoly on brutality, worldwide, but the people who went raiding and invading were definitely brutal. I still think it's an interesting question (and the same can be asked of plenty of other groups): Where did all that attitude go? Not that it's answerable, I don't suppose. Maybe people tried commanding their kids to swallow it?

Which might lead back to what you said about modern-day suicide rates? I've had a long day and don't mean to imply I've thought well at all about it, but here's the WHO numbers on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate
There's a warning there that the numbers could be a little "off". Looks to me like Sweden could be faring much worse... Wow look at the across-the-board gender difference!

Steve


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 10:52 am 
Hi Steve,
No, I interpreted it as you meant it I think... But I got a interested. I am interested in history. But I have limited time to read thoroughly. Or it's a matter of prioritizing? And maybe that is one of problems; that I am interested in a lot and want to extend over "everything"?

Yes, I saw the gender-difference! And I also saw that Finland came high up in the list. People in Finland drink "a lot"... And people in "the north" had to be strong tough people; reading books, talking about feelings and emotions, that wasn't manly. Reading books could give you a lot of strange thoughts... You could accept if women read books? But that has changed mostly.

My grandmother (maternal) grew up in a laestadian family, a fairly strict religious sect. Yes, you could say "sect"! And it's origin is as Dennis said "caused" by alcohol-drinking!! Actually I found a link in English at wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laestadianism
And I think children were seen as gifts from God!!! (God's responsibility and fault!!! How convenient!!). I am not sure people in general had SO many children?? Or they did and many died?

The generations don't come close in my family: my great grandparents (maternal) got their first child when they were both 28! My grandmother was the midst, born when they were 39 I think. She was thus the 9th child? And they got their 17thwhen they were 49 (no problems with getting pregnant there!!). My grandmother married late! And got her first child, m oldest uncle, when she was 31. Before that she had had a miscarriage after a walk on around 70 km with a heifer she had got from her parents when she married. They could afford that!! To all their children!

This sounds unbelievable! That people so near me have experienced this! I am not that old!!! And we are modern people! And Sweden is modern and a wealthy country...

Mom was the second child, born when her mother was 32. And my grandmother turned 60 the year I was born. I was her oldest grandchild. I don't feel like the oldest!!? :| And I am not sure people would believe I am either? The sensitive, artist-type girlish cousin?
My whole history here??

But my grandmother broke free from the strictest thing in this religion, and her parents accepted this!? So in a way they were fairly open? And if they were as my grandmother they were occupied with themselves to that degree? And I think my grandparents were better grandparents than parents!
With a lot of children you can't really control all!! So if you don't et the attention a child would need you can escape or disappear in a crowd!? :) But I was the oldest, and had the eyes o me more?

On the west-coast of Sweden, round Gothenburg there is a similar "belt" of religious people, but they aren't laestadians...
Ingeborg hae interesting thoughts about the higher rates of "successful" suicides among men (maybe others have come to similar conclusions, but use other words and conceptions? I don't know): men use other ways of coping than women, in general. When women tend to admit more to self-blame, men tend to hide this side more bot to themselves and to the environment. When women tend to use false hope: if I do this and that, then... Men tend to use what Bosch calls false power, which can be expressed as anger (gives the child and later grown up a sense of strength - and power) or by denying its needs (if I have no need I can't be harmed).

Bosch wonders if this difference means that men use more effective, "successful" methods when they try to commit suicides, which can be an explanation or the higher suicide rates...

And she thinks thoughts of suicides has to do with the defense she calls the Primary defense; a defense in which the small child blames her/himself for not being able to cope better, for not being able to meet ts own needs. Blaming itself for what he/she had to endure and for what was done to it...

And I agree with Dennis that we should help people process things instead of allowing euthanasia!! Help those in so deep depressions. And by the way (BTW!!??) the Norwegian doctor (and ACE-study) is pointing to connections between somatic ill-health to early experiences... (are we interested in hearing about them??).

I believe strongly in corporal punishment bans! But it is true that both that physical abuse probably still exists (yes, it exists), and also that the abuse can take other forms, be more hidden!? In sexual and emotional abuse. And emotional abuse has been and is belittled still!! Yes, I think children have emotional needs: of being respected, listened to, explained to etc.

And here in Sweden there is only 9 million people on a fairly big area! :) So we aren't necessarily forced together! :) If one shall joke about it?? On good and bad. And we are also said to be nature-lovers??? I am, our Swedish soprano Ann-Sofie von Otter http://www.annesofievonotter.com/ (we are in the same age BTW!!) has said she is too. Dag Hammarskjöld http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dag_Hammarskj%C3%B6ld was, and many not that known are?? Or some of us need nature as a resort? Dag Hammarksjöld struggled a lot with himself, and he never married, was fairly lonely? He had a strong mother and an absent father, and the ties in that family were strong. Dag was more tied up than his three brothers (both older and younger if I remember right).
Oh no, this became a long posting!!

Yes, one can see brutal people in other parts of the world too! And I think this brutality has reasons. Has with child-rearing practices to do!?
Hear you! :)

Karin

PS. My paternal grandmother's oldest sister moved to USA together with their aunt. But that's all I know about her. Me and my siblings (we six) are younger than all cousins on dad's side, despite dad was the third in line of four. Dad was 34 when I was born... And HIS parents in turn was over 30 when he was born. That marriage was dad's father's second. His first wife died in tuberculosis and had two sons in that marriage... Divorce doesn't exist in my parents generation, but in mine... I was a bit unsure yesterday when I posted this under what category to post it...


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 11:07 am 
Steve

Steve,
Quote:
"could be faring much worse...",
does that mean that Sweden could have it much worse?? :)

And I want to add that even if it looks like something else; I too have a lot else to do, so I haven't thought well about everything I write!! A lot is about thinking loudly?? But, yes, I have read a lot! It has been possible to read what I have read as I am not a very young woman (even if I am girlish in many ways, a sigh!! A woman I have contact with from ourchildhood.int got the impression from what I wrote there that I was tall and blond! She got surprised when I sent a picture, that I am short and dark. Actually it stands in my passport that I am dark-blond. So I AM blond after all!!?? You know the blond Vikings!?? :) My mom was really dark).

Karin


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 7:44 pm 
Karin wrote:
Yes, one can see brutal people in other parts of the world too! And I think this brutality has reasons. Has with child-rearing practices to do.

For most human problems unempathic child-rearing is the major factor. But I see two factors. Throughout history there are endless examples of societies that lived in peace for centuries until they suffered problems of overpopulation, at which point they invaded other countries or started wars to get access to resources. Sometimes, as in Bosnia or Rwanda, genocide was the result.

One could make the case that non-brutal people would have the wisdom to introduce birth control. Many primitive societies practiced infanticide. The birth control pill only arrived 50 years ago. Unfortunately, it almost never happens that religious leaders would accept birth control as a solution. Even up to modern times, they preferred to exterminate people who held different beliefs. That may be a poison that runs deeper in human nature than an un-empathic attitude towards children.

There is no sign that 21st century humans are turning away from religion en-masse. Even atheists are susceptible to beliefs that are not supported by hard evidence. If all atheists throughout the world agreed with each other about what to believe I might accept that a non-religious upbringing could solve the problem of contradictory beliefs. Quite obviously, it doesn't. There are atheists who belong to cults. I found many atheists in the cult I used to belong to. They claimed their beliefs were 'humanistic' or 'spiritual' or 'enlightened' without any need for a God.

In the "Reflections on therapy" topic Steve said he had been hunting for criticisms or rebuttals of Alice Miller's ideas. One criticism I have seen often in reviews is that she offers a single explanation for problems which could have many causes. Mostly that's denial of the importance of child-rearing. But there is no point in telling skeptics that overpopulation is not a separate cause of conflicts in the world.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 5:21 pm 
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Quote:
the Norwegian doctor (and ACE-study) is pointing to connections between somatic ill-health to early experiences... (are we interested in hearing about them??)


Yes?

Quote:
I believe strongly in corporal punishment bans!

I admire and cheer those that aim for children's legal rights, but can't shed the suspicion that parental commandments from government amount in the end to still just squeezing a water balloon. Personally, it makes me a little angry any time government tells me I must do anything. I think that if Twain lived today he woudn't be wondering:

"Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it."--Mark Twain

By the way and off topic, but the responses to this recent letter signal something, I think: http://www.alice-miller.com/readersmail ... 3&grp=0108

Yes Karin, looks like Sweden isn't in the top third of countries listed for suicide rates. I only had time to skim, but did find somebody has studied Swedish suicide rates as they might apply to increased use of 'medication' there.

D.R.B.:

Quote:
Even up to modern times, they preferred to exterminate people who held different beliefs. That may be a poison that runs deeper in human nature than an un-empathic attitude towards children.


Or it may run equally as deep because it's exactly the same poison!
Oops sorry if that color's a little over the top...

Steve


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 6:24 pm 
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The suicide rate in Sweden is quite high when you think of the standard of living here and the rights of children. According to the WHO, Sweden scores a bit higher than the US, and is on the 10th place. See this data on this site for example.

But the countries that really stick out are Lithuania and Russia. It probably is a combination of factors that drives a person to suicide, but a very underestimated factor is the child birth. In Sweden almost all mothers go to a hospital to deliver, as if they are ill (see this recent article). While in Holland, the majority delivers a child in their own home. It's easy to intimidate a future mother that it's in her best interest to deliver the child in a hospital in case something goes wrong. Anxiety and stress are always bigger in a hospital though, which increases the chance that something goes wrong. And when things do go wrong, do you really want a doctor using force or tranquilizers and damage the baby?

Is there a correlation between a traumatic birth and suicide? Yes, according to Ludwig Janus in his book The Enduring Effects of Prenatal Experience: Echoes from the Womb the imprinted near-death experience showed a high similarity to the later act of suicide.

Also Sweden is a very individualistic country. Strong family ties or having really good friends are rare here.

Steve, what do you think that letter on Alice Miller's page signals?

Dennis

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 8:44 pm 
Steve wrote:
Or it may run equally as deep because it's exactly the same poison!

Point taken, Steve. I didn't explain what I meant clearly. Sure, it's the same poison when religious leaders oppose birth control. I was thinking of countries that lived in peace until they suffered overpopulation problems.

Steve wrote:
By the way and off topic, but the responses to this recent letter signal something, I think

I've noticed it before. Miller seems to enjoy making sarcastic remarks in response to readers who haven't quite understood the need to face emotional truths. I don't like to see that. I don't think it helps her cause.

Dennis:
No doubt there is a link between traumatic childbirth and suicide. But it doesn't explain why many countries that use harsh medical interventions have lower suicide rates than Lithuania and Russia, or why males outnumber females by a very wide margin. Eastern European countries suffered a dramatic fall in living standards after the collapse of the Soviet Union. Unemployment rates sky-rocketed. Those Eastern European countries dominate the suicide rankings:

List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 9:38 pm 
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D.R.B. wrote: Throughout history there are endless examples of societies that lived in peace for centuries until they suffered problems of overpopulation, at which point they invaded other countries or started wars to get access to resources. Sometimes, as in Bosnia or Rwanda, genocide was the result.

I have thought of this, had to digest it… But overpopulation is no answer why the Vikings were so brutal… The there were even less people living here. And I wonder if the Vikings were especially poor either, as they could build the ships they built? So it wasn’t because they starved either?? Which doesn’t exclude people starved, but they were so poor and weak so they couldn’t do much, or??

But it is possible people become more aggressive if they live tighter so to say!? If they have less space. Forced together and forced to share space and a lot else? But what are they reacting against/on? I live in a town with a very old mine. The miners many hundred years ago were extremely poor and they had a lot of children (!!!), could live in small cottage with only one room... But did they become aggressive?

And (I don’t know if this a good example, and if I reveal how little I know) but China didn’t join any of the world-wars?? Despite that country is overpopulated…
Quote:
Steve wrote: Yes? (on that I mentioned Kirkengen and the ACE-study?).

:) See an excerpt of the book “How Abused Children Becomes Unhealthy Adults” translated from Norwegian to English: http://docs.google.com/View?docid=df69f ... 7tdq&pli=1
And about the ACE-study (Adverse Childhood Experiences study): http://www.acestudy.org/ and here: http://www.cdc.gov/nccdphp/ace/index.htm

Quote:
Steve wrote (as a comment that I believe in Corporal Punishment Bans): I admire and cheer those that aim for children's legal rights, but can't shed the suspicion that parental commandments from government amount in the end to still just squeezing a water balloon. Personally, it makes me a little angry any time government tells me I must do anything.


I must smile again, a bit “perplex” or how I shall describe it… I have got this reaction from another American; that the government shall not come and tell people… Is this a cultural difference? With this I don’t mean to say that the government shall dictate everything… But it signals something. It signals what’s seen as wrong? Not least to children?

But I think I too can get angry when someone else comes and tells me what to do and sometimes what I shall not do!? At least if they do it with a certain tone?? “You shall…!!” or “You shall not…!” Just like that… And sometimes it can probably awake the rebellion in me? Because it probably triggers experiences I had with my dad!?? And mom too? “Oh no, you shall not come and tell me what I shall do!!!”
Quote:
Dennis wrote: …a very underestimated factor is the child birth. In Sweden almost all mothers go to a hospital to deliver, as if they are ill

Yes, a traumatic birth the child didn’t get help to process, if a newborn child wasn’t comforted probably causes a lot!!! In fact I am the first generation in my family not born at home!! Both my mom and dad were born at home. And when I was born, and all my siblings were born (my youngest sister is 41) the newborn baby was also taken away to be bathed!!! But the last decades the newborn child is put on the mother’s breast even before they have cut the umbilical cord (navel-string). And when we were born dad wasn’t present. As all dad's are today.

Quote:
Dennis wrote: Also Sweden is a very individualistic country. Strong family ties or having really good friends are rare here.

I don’t know if my family is an exception, but there the ties are very tight! Depends on what you mean with strong ties?? If you are much tied up I get a feeling you are less autonomous? And that isn’t so good for the health or for a lot of other things? To say it short... But you can look very independent on the outside... And that about having real good friends I am perhaps not the best saying anything about that… Home-blind. As this is the culture I grew up in. I can only talk for myself, and I lived at five places my first 18 years and of course had to create new ties to for instance class-mates once and again, with all what that means... Moderated by the fact that I grew up in a nuclear family, with strong ties, which doesn't mean we are close i think?? Probably a lot of competition among us? it is a lot to say about this. What is healthy ties and what are not?

And the reply to that readers’ letter… isn’t it unempathic? Replying like that when a person is writing in confidence… And what that person wrote, that history was so sad. Yes, what do you think this letter signals, Steve? :)

You wrote that Barbara Rogers is host for Miller's web, Dennis. What can that mean? I can't help wonder how healthy are those ties between those two? And if people have complaints about what's happening on ourchildhood.int (or off-list there, or what's not happening both on and off-list there) where do people turn? Is Barbara maybe censoring critical posts to Miller??

Don't they sound "a bit" authoritarian?? Or not so little authoritarian? And isn't their behavior pretty totalitarian? For instance that subscribers whose letters get refused only get a message with the words "Post was received" with no explanation why it was rejected!! And on top not by whom!! So you don't know which one you shall get angry at!? :? Isn't this exactly as many of our parents behaved?? They had the power not to explain their decision/s - or why they punished the child!! And as in a therapy the context is similar to the one with our parents or other caregivers?? And the relation to the one in a power-position is similar to our first experiences? And doesn't Barbara favors some??

Hmmm, Miller has written about how important it is that the therapist has freed her/himself from unconscious manipulation, i.e. worked her/his own through to such a degree that she/he is at hardly any risk of playing her/his own story out on the client? And I think that on a list that is called "Miller's list" which this is called since Barbara became moderator you are entitled to have high demands on the moderator/s!!?? By the way, I think up to at least five more women has been rejected from this list by Barbara in a way that has harmed them to different degrees? (what a "strange" reply Barbara wrote I think).

Karin

PS. There had come a new reply while I was writing this.
Quote:
http://wallsofsilence.com/forum2/ wrote: I've noticed it before. Miller seems to enjoy making sarcastic remarks in response to readers who haven't quite understood the need to face emotional truths. I don't like to see that. I don't think it helps her cause.

Yes, sarcastic!! No it doesn’t help her cause!!! I don’t like that either!!


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 10:56 pm 
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http://wallsofsilence.com/forum2 wrote:
No doubt there is a link between traumatic childbirth and suicide. But it doesn't explain why many countries that use harsh medical interventions have lower suicide rates than Lithuania and Russia.


Birth practices in Lithuania and Russia are horrible. Probably the worst in the world. Which countries that have 'harsh medical interventions' would have a dramatic lower suicide rate?

http://wallsofsilence.com/forum2 wrote:
... why males outnumber females by a very wide margin.


Men cannot duplicate the repressed birth trauma by delivering a child, can they? But there can be stressful events that can act as a trigger to drive someone to suicide. What I would like to find out is if there are people that have attempted suicide who have an objective record of a non-traumatic birth.

http://wallsofsilence.com/forum2 wrote:
Eastern European countries suffered a dramatic fall in living standards after the collapse of the Soviet Union. Unemployment rates sky-rocketed.


After the reunion of Germany in 1990, suicide rates went down, despite the high unemployment in the East. See the PDF statistics here.

Dennis

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 1:03 am 
I don't know why, but in my previous post the forum URL replaced my initials.

Karin wrote:
But overpopulation is no answer why the Vikings were so brutal… The there were even less people living here. And I wonder if the Vikings were especially poor either, as they could build the ships they built. So it wasn't because they starved either

The Vikings used ships to establish new colonies in Iceland, the Orkney Islands, Shetland Islands, Faeroe Islands and Greenland. The Greenland colony was wiped out during Little Ice Age in the early 1400s. Archaeologists found evidence of mass starvation. Why would Vikings colonize far away places that were marginal for agriculture if their homeland could support the entire population in comfort? In Viking times farmland wasn't as productive as in modern times. We have chemical fertilizers, pesticides and farm machinery. Even if less people were living there many centuries ago doesn't mean early agricultural methods could support them all. So I think it is possible that people can become more aggressive if they live in an overpopulated environment. To start wars they need sufficient military power to stand a chance of success. To carry out swift raids or colonize empty lands it is enough to have good ship technology.

In 20th century Sweden, where doctors performed surgery on infants without anaesthetics, and families like your grandparents had the attitudes you described -- how come the Swedish have a worldwide reputation as a peaceful nation? Where did the brutality go? The Corporal Punishment Ban arrived less than one lifetime ago.

China fought the Japanese invaders in World-War II.

Dennis wrote:
Men cannot duplicate the repressed birth trauma by delivering a child, can they?

That seems like stretching facts to fit a pre-conceived idea. Procrustean logic.

Dennis wrote:
What I would like to find out is if there are people that have attempted suicide who have an objective record of a non-traumatic birth.

That would be useful to know. Please tell us if you find objective evidence one way or the other. I mean from researchers who didn't already believe the connection was there.

Dennis wrote:
After the reunion of Germany in 1990, suicide rates went down, despite the high unemployment in the East.

Lithuania hasn't been reunified with a country which promises healthy economic prospects in the future. The BBC article you linked to said Sierra Leone has the highest child mortality rate in the world. But I could find no evidence through Google that it has an exceptionally high suicide rate. It is a country torn by war. It has an extremely high death rate through war, murder, and suicide bombers, but I found nothing about suicides at home.

BBC News wrote:
In Sierra Leone the operating theatre was almost bare: there were no monitors to check the mother's vital signs and just one doctor.

But coming back to Lithuania, this article says the suicide rate doubled in the last 10 years. It also says suicide rates are twice as high in the countryside. I'm guessing, but wouldn't women in the countryside have doulas to assist birth instead of being taken away to a cold operating room in a hospital?


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 1:53 am 
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DRB wrote:
Dennis wrote:Men cannot duplicate the repressed birth trauma by delivering a child, can they?

That seems like stretching facts to fit a pre-conceived idea. Procrustean logic.


Do you underestimate the traumatic aspect of a birth gone wrong? Lack of oxygen or cruel tools such as these:

Image Image

imprints the near-death experience. A trauma that is not conscious (by feeling) tends to get repeated. A theory of which you can easily see its validity in the world around you. Just like a person idealizes spanking from his own childhood to justify it on his child, a mother can repeat the birth trauma on her own child. Isn't the core of the feeling to commit suicide to be 'unwanted'? Also failed attempts to evoke an abortion cause an immense trauma in the unborn child. I think if a researcher would compare hospital records and interview parents of people who have committed suicide, a clear pattern would come forward.

Dennis

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Everything I write here is my opinion, not absolute truths but I don't want to start every sentence with in my opinion...


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 4:01 am 
Dennis wrote:
Do you underestimate the traumatic aspect of a birth gone wrong? Lack of oxygen or cruel tools such as these

No. I am saying it doesn't explain why the suicide rate in Lithuania doubled in the last 10 years, or why it is twice as high in the countryside. I saw your new post about Birth Trauma and suicide. The PDF says "Since such imprinting processes are facilitated by testosterone, we expected men to be affected more than women." I will take time to read it carefully.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 7:51 am 
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I didn't realize there were so many ties in the list of 100 countries shown on WHO's page—reprinted at Wikipedia here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... icide_rate

(I thought there were only 95.) Sweden does make the top third, ranked 32nd. But again, as it says in the article:

“Even in countries where cause-of-death data is collected systematically, differing societal attitudes toward suicide may impact the recorded figures (e.g., misreporting a suicide as an accidental death out of deference for the bereaved). Also, due to the highly corrupt police forces in Eastern Europe, many murders are written off as suicides.[citation needed]”

My gut tells me to suspect that reporting accuracy varies, probably wildly. I'd bet that Sweden's statistics are probably pretty accurate though, and yes, it would certainly be nice to see an improvement in suicide rates correlate to the reduction in physical punishment there. All I know is that that statistic stuff is too complicated for me!

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D.R.B wrote: Miller seems to enjoy making sarcastic remarks in response to readers who haven't quite understood the need to face emotional truths.

All right, maybe that's what was going on. Thanks D.R.B. I was never able to completely decipher what the reader was trying to say, exactly. It just seemed to me there's a big difference between 'having access to one's full range of emotions' and "Humor ist verboten!"

Karin, thank you for the ACE links. I've placed shortcuts on my desktop, will read later. I think that pyramid on the CDC page is the one Ann Jennings used in her powerpoint presentation. Here's one for fun: http://www.deathclock.com/ I punched in my info sometime in 2001. A window popped up saying my death date would be sometime four years or so before that, that my time had expired and for me to have a nice day!

Yes, the government thing is tricky for me and is really too much to write about here. Bottom line is that I have to wonder about it. A lot.

I'm still subscribed to the ourchildhood list after nine months or so. It's an odd animal but it's interesting being a reader of it, which is what I am 99+% of the time now, just observing. I do agree with you Karin, that it seems like a lot of those people could be affected greatly by the impersonal "rejection letter". I've had two, didn't let them get to me nor did I spend much time trying to figure out how I violated the agreement posted on the application page. I only would have been able to make wild guesses.

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D.R.B. wrote: Why would Vikings colonize far away places that were marginal for agriculture if their homeland could support the entire population in comfort?
Eric the Red was a habitual criminal who kept getting himself exiled.

Steve


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 4:18 pm 
Steve wrote:
Eric the Red was a habitual criminal who kept getting himself exiled.

I read that he founded the Greenland colony because he was driven out of Iceland due to crimes of violence. He must have been wealthy to be the owner of a large ship. However, Iceland was marginal for agriculture too. After all the soil in the pastures became eroded the inhabitants switched to fishing for their subsistence.

http://athropolis.com/arctic-facts/fact-skraelings.htm


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