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Childhood trauma and its consequences
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 12:09 am 
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Hello to all. I'm new here, but have been reading your forums for some while. Now, as much as I would like to introduce myself (which I don't, for the time being), I'm going to aim for the jugular first as an attempt to get to know you guys (even if only slightly) before I do any other move. I truly, truly, truly expect you all to be honest and straightfoward in your answers, as I will do the same. Oh right, so here's the question: ¿How do you handle your anxiety (of whatever kind), if you have any? Or better, ¿how do you react to anxiety in your daily lives?, and with that I mean AWAY from the therapy time, that is, if your therapy has any kind of time restraint. Thank you for your attention, and please notify me if this post is not in the correct topic of the forum. Oh, and I'll give you my answer too, if you want, just not now (I'm specially waiting for Dennis and Daniel to anwser).


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 5:48 am 
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Hey, and one extremely important question more; how do you believe Alice Miller handles or reacts to her daily, or monthly, who gives a hell, anxiety? If she is'nt really devoid of trauma then I'm sure she suffers from it, in one way or another. Rationalizations (by which I mean seemingly logical thoughts used to cover the truth) are given to oneself only in response to pain, to diminish it, you know, as in ocdelicious. I also believe the truth comes naturally if it is'nt connected to a painful past, you get my idea. Of course I would love to get the answer from the polish herself, but this will do for the time being. That or tell me how to contact her directly, lol.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 2:33 pm 
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Hi,

Anxiety can be a lot of things. I don't think there's a specific way to deal with it appropriately. Many people try to avoid situations that create anxiety because it reminds them of something that they don't want to think about. For me personally, anxiety came in certain situations where I felt very uncomfortable because I was exposed to similar situations in my childhood and punished and humiliated for that. Situations where I had to ask for help were very difficult for me. Only by starting a dialogue with myself, with the child I once was, I managed to accept that I was once helpless but that as an adult I could change that. Writing has helped with that, too. But also many times I just let myself to allow anxiety and not to see it as something that needs to be suppressed. Anxiety is a normal reaction to abnormal situations. If there are any specific anxieties you want to know more about, let me know.

I don't think Daniel reads this forum. I can imagine that Alice Miller would probably tell you why you think it's so important how she feels, that it's important how YOU feel and to take YOUR body seriously. But one wrong word in your email to her and she'll ignore you. You can contact her here.

Dennis

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 9:04 pm 
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Hey! Thanks for the answer, you are really kind. Sorry for taking this long to respond, but your answer really gave me something to think about. Besides, I had some unfinished bussiness with myself. Well, to start with, it is very sad Daniel doen'st read this forums because it would be very interesting to have him in this discussion. It would also be extremely intriguing to have Miller here, if a bit far-fetched, lol. Anyway, you are here and that's quite something. Now, if there isn't anything wrong with it, let me ask you some GROUNDbreaking questions more:

1. How frequently do you feel anxious?
2. How strong is that anxiety?
3. What is it related to? (I know it is a very simplistic question, but, common, give me a mediocre answer, I don't give a...)
4. How does it feel? (This one is really to reassure myself that we are talking about the same thing here, you know; unpleasant feeling that is typically associated with uneasiness, fear, or worry, that does not resolves itself but continues in it's vague, or not so vague, hideous existance until you stop the apparent source of anxiety, which is rarely even posible as it tends to hover in the realms of the very relative and imaginary, or you distract yourself from it, or meditate, what have you. Not like sadness or pooping, that are gone after you cry or go to the toilet. God, I hate anxiety.)
5. What do think are the causes of anxiety?
6. Do you attribute it to current events only in some cases?
7. So, anxiety will follow us to the grave?
8. Or do you believe that the mere act of facing that emotion and feeling it in it's full scale is a way of effectively getting rid of it with time? (Until the next time something triggers you, or you become a friggin Buddha)
9. What about guilt, hate and tendency to feel like crap after telling a bad joke? (I'm dead serious with that)
10. Do I ask TOO much questions?
11. Could you explain that part about the dialog with the child you once were? (I guess it's a metaphore to obtaining inner empathy and compassion to your own history, but what do I gain with guesing all over the place, and besides, if I'm right, how did you gain that in the first place)
12. What did you write, why, and how did it help you? (and add a "how did it feel", because I truly want to know about it, as I have not been able to use writing as a tool to manage my problems)
13. I don't have any particular huge problem with anxiety right now, however I do suffer from one way or another of not-so-terrible stress dialy. Like the other day I drove the car to the market for the first time (I'm not THAT young, I just took my time to start driving) and was getting nuts because I couldn't manage to get the car in reverse pass the slope that is at the exit of the parking place where I live. I even hit the wall because I had too much impulse By the end I was sweaty, dizzy, and even trembling a bit. I did it, and I can drive without too much trouble, don't get me wrong, but the level of stress was quite high, as it was also my first time alone. What would have you done in my case to alliviate, evade or vanish that stresss?
14. Why is it that no one can tolerate a children having a tantrum? When my brother (8) cries or gets angry because of something (like don't letting him play more wii) I just stay with him and let him kick some pillows or cry by my side until he calms down, and after that everything goes quite smoothly. It doesn't happen too often, and it is never a big problem for me; I don't mind him expressing his feelings. However, whenever it happens with my parents, they just freak out, and let him alone or punish him (that's normally what my mom does, and even sometives she messes with him, like saying "let's cry, oh, let's cry!"), or try to "dialogue out" things (what my father normally does), which means shutting him up and expecting him to accept he was wrong and they were right. I have seen this in many other families and I assume it is quite the standar, but it is disturbing nonethelesss.
15. Can you tolerate a children's tantrum?

Thank you for your attention, BIG attention. By the way, I haven't wrote to Miller yet, but I'll probably do. Ask me any questions about me if you like, too; I guess you damm well deserve it after this...
Oh, and it ins't that I deem you a guru, I do have reasons to ask this questions to you, but I'll explain later... I'm just too tired now.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 11:54 pm 
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You can ask all the questions you want, but since they seem to be about anxiety, which can be very general, I think it would be better if you ask yourself those questions. If you ask a 100 people, you get 100 different answers. I think it's importance to allow yourself to feel anxiety, as long as it doesn't overshadow everything else in your life. A dialogue with yourself in such situations can be helpful, if you recognize it's connected to childhood experiences. This takes time however but even though it doesn't feel like it will end, as long as you stay open to your feelings and allowing ALL feelings as normal, you will gain confidence. What you write about your driving experience, my first reaction would be; so what if you felt nervous. Are you worried that you break something? A human life is more important than any material object out there. We all make mistakes when trying something new and that's how we learn and discover.

You seem to know very well how to deal with your younger brother. I react the same way as you, when I see a child becoming hysterical. I stay calm (because it doesn't bother me) and often I tell the parent to stay calm because talking to a child in such state doesn't help. Kids look how the parent react, they seldom listen. After a while they get tired and then you maybe can talk about it, if it's about something important.

Anxiety for me usually goes together with more tense muscles. I can't say I'm without anxiety in a car in heavy traffic or in an airplane or if I end up in a possible street fight. It's as if my body prepares itself for an emergency even when there isn't a current one. I once read about this woman who always dropped something or stumbled. She was so nervous, that when she was for example carrying a tray with cups, she would start to visualize how she fell and drop everything. Her body reacted to such visualizations and started to make corrections by using some small muscles, which resulted in losing her balance and dropping it. You shouldn't correct anything that doesn't have to be corrected.

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9. What about guilt, hate and tendency to feel like crap after telling a bad joke? (I'm dead serious with that)


Could you explain this more? What guilt, hate do you mean?

It's always difficult to get personal with someone I don't know. So if I wrote something that you disagree with, that's perfectly okay. I'm not in the habit to give advice in life. But don't be to hard on yourself in your journey of self-discovery.

Dennis

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Everything I write here is my opinion, not absolute truths but I don't want to start every sentence with in my opinion...


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 7:38 am 
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Oh right, I'm quite sleepy here, so I guess it's possible I don’t make all the sense in the world, but here I go anyway. About the incident when I was driving, I actually didn't tell you the whole story: I managed to get rid of that anxiety by identifying it as anger against my devoid of acceptance father, after which I recovered my peace. See, I'm not really that helpless, and you apparently don't remember what I first stated in this topic: "Now, as much as I would like to introduce myself (which I don't, for the time being), I'm going to aim for the jugular first as an attempt to get to know you guys (even if only slightly) before I do any other move." I know it may sound harsh, but, well; some time ago I read all your discussions with Daniel Mackler and his essays about Van Winkle and that really made me nervous and made me doubt a ton of things about the effectiveness of her therapy. Thankfully I didn't let myself be ridden by the obsession and never tried to confront you guys or anything, but concentrated on all those horrible feelings and converted them into anger against my parents (and also cried A LOT), after which (many times after actually) I found myself at relative peace in that respect and forgot the matter. However, with the pass of time and my efforts in the therapy, I recovered my analytic abilities to a greater degree (oh so sherlock-holmey). It's not that I'm perfectly fine now, but I'm certainly much more in my senses, enough to question that passed situation again more rationally and get shocked at how you dismissed her so easily based on mostly unproven arguments. So, here's part of where I got: You are certainly not as much cured as one could think (or as I ingenuously considered possible), and certainly not post-flood or postprimape-whatever. There are many, many factors which led me to that, which is actually part of my soon (or not so soon, or never; it's not like you need it that much or will change your way of doing things 'cause of it. Besides, I know the biology may be screwed, although that doesn’t have to mean she was schizo; perhaps she was only short of resources and/or intellect) to come defense of Elnora Van winkle, but I required one pivotal answer to truly confirm it. That answer I got from Daniel in his own website, and from you, here. "Anxiety": one thing is fear, or anger, or joy, or sadness, but anxiety is an indubitable (as much as things can be so; and, yeah, I'm also gettin’ friggin tired of these stupid parenthesis) proof of repressed emotions. I have confirmed that more than enough times during my healing journey. There has not been any exception to the fact that anxiety is interchangeable with anger with abusers of the past, be it a clear one or a desire to scream like a newborn baby. It's is not about recognizing my fears, or dialoguing with my inner child or anything like that, it is about FEELING. If and whenever I decide to feel and FEEL the pain (mostly anger, by far) the anxiety just goes away. It returns, yes, but in the present time it is much less than what it was a year before, and still fades away if I repeat the procedure. "Negative emotions" work this way: you feel sad, you cry, it goes away, you feel angry, you express and feel that anger, it goes away, you get scared, you feel the fear and escape, it ends. Anxiety doesn’t work that way because it is not a real emotion, anxiety does not end by feeling it, it can only be tricked away, like in meditation. In other words, you won't get healed of trauma in a thousand years just by feeling anxiety, because it is not the real feeling that is repressed but the effects of its repression in our present life. Real emotions do not feel vague or annoying, they don't make you doubt of yourself, become uncomfortably self-aware or think obsessively, they are just there, being real, being felt, as long as you don’t keep them at bay. Anxiety is just not like that, and the same goes for hate, insecurity and guilt. If you have anxiety, then you have repressed emotions, and if you let the anxiety thrive, you are just leaving those emotions repressed, healing minimally, which is maybe part of the problem with primal therapy and it’s famous “defenses”, that it leaves you alone with your symptoms when not in therapy. Those facts and your answer, ultimately, told me two things: first, your thinking is most probably distorted as you have no tools to effectively and radically battle anxiety out of your life and must live with it (and it's not that hard to know that anxiety and the many other symptoms of trauma have devastating effects in anyone's discerning abilities if they have 'em as little devilish sprites over their shoulders without truly knowing how to cast them off), and second, you never really tried Ellie's therapy as it has to be done (redirecting every symptom, all the time), or you would know all of this too and most likely wouldn't suffer from any kind of anxiety by now (except the street fight part, but that's fear, don’t mess with me, *_*).

Sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo… that was quite ego-busting. Anyway¡, resolved "mysteries" apart, I consider you a great human being and would love to continue posting in this forum and start sharing with you and all the others as friends and comrades in luck. And I say luck because, as you know, most people go through their lives suffering and screwing with their loved ones without even knowing any better, never having a real chance to confront their emotions and their past and get their lives completely back at their hands, losing so much because of this. Heck, I even was one of those people until last June.

Now, to make my entrance a bit less, you know, awkward, I’m gonna throw you some data on my background: I’m a 19 year old man living in Colombia who used to have OCD and dysthymia , but no longer does. And I still have many inner problems to solve, but I’m facing them and getting better by the hour (more or less, as it really depends in how pissed off and sad i can get). Oh, and I’m a bit high ‘cause of the ranting, but it’s not that bad.

By the way, I believe I do know the answer to almost all the questions I made, that is, if I asked them to myself. The ones I don't know are the 11 and the 12, and I would really appreciate if you could give me the answer to them, and would maybe even put those techniques to practice if they can make my healing process more effective or fast.


Open to refutals, but don’t think I won’t strike back.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 7:52 am 
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Oh, and about question 15: Rock on, that's the spirit! Ehem...


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 8:05 am 
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And (damm, triple poster) I don't believe they get tired, I believe they end expressing their feelings for the moment, which probably were exagerated because of previously repressed emotions. My brother does not feel tired after crying or raging, nor do I, we feel more peaceful and ready to understand things under a new perspective, solve our problems and/or dialogue. Haven't you read Aretha Solter's "Tears and Tantrums"? Give it a try, it talks about what I just told you, although I find it strange that you don't know it or haven't felt it by now. A kid sometimes just needs to cry and get angry and feel listened, just like we do, even if he initially does not realize this (jus as we do :roll: ).


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 8:08 am 
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And about question 9: All kinds.

I promise, this is the last one...


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:07 am 
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Just a quick reply but I'll get back to it later today or tomorrow. I think you misunderstood me about Ellie van Winkle. In the therapy Forum here, I've placed it on top of the page for years: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=36
I don't think I'm rejecting her form of therapy.

And where did you read that I have claimed I'm a healed person?

And tantrums and feeling tired after a while, I meant physically tired, not mentally tired. The human body can only strain itself that much with all that adrenaline pumping, that it'll get to a point of rest again. If no one around it makes it worse that is.

Dennis

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 5:33 pm 
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Hey!, common, I told you I was a bit high. But, damm, that was fun..., although it was probably more about me than you. Still, you gotta give me some credit. Now, please take a look and these pearls:
"Post Flood isn't a walk in the park. It's a life with less extreme hurt." (By you, and yeah, I know it's picky, but, common, how could you know if you aren't really post-flood. Okay, let's say you are by Ellie's definition of post-flood, which doesn't mean end of anxiety; even in that case there's still your answer about anxiety, which shows you might be pretty much stagnated 'cause you don’t redirect those feelings that bring you anxiety, and I'm sure as hell you could)
"Your critique is however spot on. There's no way around it, she was delusional and in denial and far from cured. I guess after my delusions with Alice Miller in 2001, I was unknowingly searching for a replacement, someone who took it to the next step. I recognized the emphasize on anger (and grieve) in her method because that's what I had been doing so much and which caused the most intense abuse I received in my childhood. I was happy to see it confirmed that my rightful anger towards my parents was justified. I also kept seeing repression confirmed in other people who were unable to physically express their anger and hatred to the causers. But grieve is indeed a very important factor, too. And the other suppressed emotions. Van Winkle presented some missing pieces of the puzzle to me. She also emphasized that it was not the trauma that needed to be relived, but the (repressed) expression towards that trauma. Something that Alice Miller also stated. And how struggling relationships are often a repeat of the struggles we had as a child. I removed Van Winkle from the introduction page on my forum. She made some valuable statements, but not exclusively. If she was wrong about her toxic brain theory, the basis of her method falls through. She is valuable within the theories of Primal, but nothing that she exclusively discovered." (guess who)
"John, the interview shows that Van Winkle lied about being cured, about being post-flood. I'm not going to promote a therapy where people end up as liars about their own condition. But everything that does work in her therapy, her method, is just plain Primal Therapy. Except she calls primaling Re-Directing. John, what you have experienced is Primal, making emotional connections. What could be important is to notice the speed of which Van Winkle worked. Maybe her method was simply too fast, and the body (and mind) built new defenses over time. Reading how she spent her last year, does suggest this very much. Stettbacher's method at least adds a few steps before the re-directing occurs. Van Winkle also stayed pretty silent about the abuse she suffered as an older child. Van Winkle was experimenting with primal based self-therapy and she contributed with some good insights and I have no doubt that it gave her some healing. As you can see at my forum, Van Winkle's self-help method is still mentioned as a post and people are of course still welcome to discuss her work. But I'm not promoting it anymore. Actually anyone who mentions my name together with Van Winkle's, I will sue. (That's a sarcastic joke.)" (well, that joke was cheap as hell)

Now do you see where I come from? Those statements and others, combined with how I now know you view anxiety, well... two things: first, Daniel's critique is very mediocre (except for the biology part, I guess) and I'll explain why if you want, but you still accepted it whitout even openly questioning it, and second, you didn't take into account one little fact that makes Ellie's theory (biology apart) very especial, that you must redirect each and every symptom, not learn to live with them and self-primal once in a while, but primal all the time by using them. Oh, and I guess you didn't read the forums archive of her, because she really deems crying as important: "The brain usually detoxes the anger first, then the grief. The crying can happen along with releasing anger, but there can also be a period of many months when crying goes on. This is a grieving process and it is good you can cry.", "A good book you might get is "Cure by Crying" by Thomas Stone." and "It is important to cry and release feelings of grief, which may be intense and last for many months." Any doubts? She also always stated that, even though the crying comes more naturally than the anger and not in the form of clear symptoms to redirect, but as sadness, you should try to connect with those feelings as much as you can, by watching movies, remembering the past, etc. And yeah, there may be more to it than just plain anger and grief. For example, I sometimes have the need to just scream as if calling for my parents, and I don't think punching on the bed could replace that. But redirecting it's not just anger, it's whatever comes, to redirect to the source and feel the underlying feeling and regain peace. Still, as she did, I don't believe there's much more to express than those 3 (sad crying, help crying, and anger). "I think there are two kinds of crying, crying that is involved in the release of anger and crying in grief" (Ellie). If you don't regain peace by connecting to some feeling, then it's probably not a real emotion but a symptom, a pseudo-emotion, as I said before. Now, to end this argument, and It's not like it'll define my happiness, and I actually doubt you'll truly listen to me (I don't feel bad or anything for considering that), the truth must be said: You are not doing things in the right way here, and that advice about anxiety you gave me was plain WRONG. Thank G...(jeez, I'm atheist) I already knew my answers. Oh, and rather than call ol’ � Winkle’s m�od too fast I would call yours too sloooow.

Lol, I went Chuck Norris all over the place again, but I guess I made my point. You know, maybe I just want an ally, ‘cause� seems you are pretty, pretty, close to the truth, which makes sadder the fact that you miss some critical points. By the way, I'm not angry, actually, I was crying a while ago because of some different reasons, but, yes, I'm certainly a bit over-excited again. Who cares.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:24 pm 
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I stopped recommending Van Winkle to people who have problems, unless they already have started using the self-help therapy. But even then, there are traps and dangers lurking. The fact that something often goes wrong after some years with people who have used Van Winkle's self-therapy, is present. Some things a person cannot do all alone. I know people want to get rid of their anxiety, fears, pain as fast as possible but after having talked with people for 17 years now about this, it never goes fast. If Van Winkle's therapy was that effective, there would be more than 2 websites promoting it. What is important is to see what does help and what not, in every therapeutic method. I have read the large forum section of Van Winkle at the time. Besides what Daniel wrote, I also concluded that Van Winkle told us very little about the abuse she suffered as a teenager. That she was religious, and that she died premature. All signs of more repressed feelings. I have no doubt that her method (which was based on Janov's method) has truly improved her life and health, but it didn't cure her.

I don't know if you're serious when you told us you were high. What type of "high" did you mean?

Quote:
It's is not about recognizing my fears, or dialoguing with my inner child or anything like that, it is about FEELING. If and whenever I decide to feel and FEEL the pain (mostly anger, by far) the anxiety just goes away.


Like I said before, when talking with someone new about personal development is very hard because I don't know what you know and what you don't. You can't just push a person in feelings he or she isn't ready for. That's why in some cases, a dialogue is a first step. Not with your inner child but with the child you once were. That usually leads to feelings anyway. For me, writing was helpful to connect with old suppressed feelings because it forced me to read it and it's as if another person would tell me that then. The first time that happened, I was writing a letter to my penfriend who had asked me what my worst experience was. At that moment I started to think of my oldest sister who got beaten by my mother with a stick. She was hitting her so hard, the stick broke. I was about 12 years old and stood there in the door opening, watching, not being able to do anything. While writing that, I suddenly realized how much I wanted to have helped her and I started to cry deeply, how that boy must have felt helpless and confused. After a while, I felt different, the urge to help helpless women disappeared. So I continued writing letters, to various people all over the world, which I did for about 10 years. I've never written a diary but these letters were mostly like that. Writing was part of a process to connect, but there were other triggers too.

There's also a big difference between Daniel and me. I'm not a therapist who charges people 80 bucks for 45 minutes of talk. As a matter of fact, I was just a Joe six-pack who dropped out of school when I was 15 and who looks at the world with curious eyes and I like to present alternative methods and views. If there's something that I wrote that helped you, great, if not, keep looking at other places. If you think you can do a better job than me, please start your own website, blog or forum. I usually suggest that to people but it almost never happens. If there's something you want to ask, share or discuss, you're welcome here of course. But I feel like I'm in a phase I find it more important to deal with practical issues than to dwell in analytical discussions.

Quote:
Actually anyone who mentions my name together with Van Winkle's, I will sue. (That's a sarcastic joke.)" (well, that joke was cheap as hell)


I was referring to the fact that Alice Miller threatened people who would mention Stettbacher and herself in the same sentence. A pattern in Miller's life is that she gets really enthusiastic about someone and recommends him or her to the fullest extend and then drops him or her completely and wants to erase any connection she had before.

I'm not sure what you're asking me, but it helps if you get to the point and to be specific.

Dennis

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 5:45 am 
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That high I had was the kind of high you get after realizing anger (happy). And yeah, that there are problems with the therapy, I have no doubt. Like the fact that it makes your symptoms worst, which is not a problem by itself, but can be horrible when combined with a lack of an adequate environment. Also the claims of post-flood in a few weeks or months are very far-fetched. Still, as I'm certainly discovering in all of you guys, the gentle approach you suggest and apparently apply (and I really expect that you are specific if you ever refute this) has many dangers, some of which I can easily pin-point. For example, as I already said, it leaves you alone with your symptoms, trying to figure them out, but not solving them. I wouldn't be surprised this is really what leads to the creation of the famous "defenses". If you are in pain, it's only natural you search ways of soothe that pain, and, if those ways aren't really healing, you'll end up rationalizating (suffering makes me stronger, god loves me more if I suffer, this anxiety or guilt or hate is a natural emotion or reaction so it's not that bad, this "whatever" makes me feel anxious then it must be wrong, I did something wrong so is natural I feel guilty and I should change my behavior, or even "this is something related to my childhood abuse and I just shouldn't listen to it" but not doing much more about it, etc.), consuming crap (drugs, alcohol, candy, etc.) or doing something distractive (meditation, pointless dialogue, etc.). Excuse me if I insult you by not deeming you capable of tolerating and living with those pains (anxiety, guilt, etc.) and not end defensive in one way or another, but I don't think anyone could.

So you say confronting them and connecting to your feelings all the time may be dangerous; okay, growing is dangerous, I give you that, but that's no excuse to go telling half-boiled advices or trying to find a middle point. With trauma there isn’t a middle point, either you are healing, or being bombarded by symptoms, which leads to avoiding pain or acting out. Yeah the truth is hard, yeah, most people are not ready to hear, yeah, healing in a world that won't accept you by who you really are may be dangerous, what have you... Are any of those reasons an excuse? But yeah, it probably wouldn't do a major thing anyway, as most people aren't in the right situation; besides, "People are defensive in different degrees and it only works if you are at the right place at the right time. " Wise words... You could have shown me both ways, but you consider anxiety to be a normal (is that healthy?) emotion. Why? “Y�shouldn't correct anything that doesn't have to be corrected.” Is� tha� handy catch-phrase used to soothe stress, something that you say to yourself in order to decrease the suffering? Correct me if I’m wrong�Mmmmm, quite messy. Of course I would love to find a way to make it all more approachable, easier and less hurtful... We all would love it, I suppose. But, see, a few times while writing all this, I found myself feeling anxious at the possibility of being wrong or too harsh, etc. I probably was in some places, but still redirected those feelings and continued writing as if nothing happened, only proof reading when at peace. I believe you agree with me in the fact that anxiety and guilt never lead to anything good by themselves. I don't tolerate them; I try the best I can to not give them space, and even with such powerful tools as I have (redirecting), I have found myself doing things influenced by them in the past. I can make mistakes, yeah, I'm sure I made many during this discussion, but I'm certainly speaking for myself and not for my parents. Do you? I don't think so, not all the time, not if anxiety or guilt, or any of those feelings are in your head, even if you feel you keep them controlled. That's why my question about anxiety was important. You said "it never goes fast", however in one year I'm a completely different person; I can confront my parents and I can fight for my interests never feeling guilty. Of course my case is only mine, but did you ever try redirecting self-therapy as it is?

Well, I have to accept that Ellie was one odd old hag. If I hadn't tried redirecting myself and read about her, I would sure have considered she was just crazy. Her use of bible passages just puzzles me, and her tendency to stand by her science shows she certainly was egocentric and not even a tad insecure. I do accept the fact that it is full of errors, but does that mean she was delusional, unhealed and sick? I believe you are looking the facts in a one sided way. It could be that she was really intellectually secure of her theory, but she didn't have the right knowledge and resources. I mean, she was heavily sick for most of her life, and that should have had repercussions in her thinking ability. The process is an emotional healing, and I guess it doesn’t make us�ror-proof; we sure may stay away from the truth because of lack of information or shortness of mind, even if we are indeed sincere with ourselves, I think. And she died prematurely, but of pancreas cancer, and, if I remember well, she stated in the forums that her pancreas was already heavily damaged because of her drug intake that lasted for decades. Now, about the religion part, I really don't know, but she never tried to convince anyone, and she criticized organized religion... Besides, the interview in Daniel's website tells nothing as the interviewed was obviously quite toxic himself, and the supposedly pivotal data he gave about Van Winkle, that she continued to be mad after the time she claimed to be cured is not specific and, in my eyes, only shows that at the time she was still doing her own therapy: " Oh, in the late 1990s, maybe in 2000. You know, I didn’t talk to h�then, just saw her, we passed on the street a few times. But she just looked mentally ill, hunched over and furious, like someone babbling…like a street�rson." I mean, common, late 90's could easily be before she even made her theory (hypothesis I call it)...

Mmmm, okay I’ll eventually p� a defense of her, I guess, but what I would really like to know now, and with that stop theorizing, is what flaws do you find in the therapy. I would also like to know if you ever did it, and if you did then what made you stop. And if you could tell me your way of viewing anxiety more clearly, and why you view it that way, it could also help to better understand you. Anyway, whatever the flaws or traps of the therapy are, I don’t think they are �aging my healing, which has been rather dramatic and solid. If you believe there are, anyway, I won’t hesitate to hear �m.

“If there's something �t I wrote that helped you, great, if not, keep looking at other places. If you think you can do a better job than me, please start your own website, blog or forum. I usually suggest that to people but it almost never happens. If there's something you want to ask, share or discuss, you're welcome here of course. But I feel like I'm in a phase I find it more important to deal with practical issues than to dwell in analytical discussions." I will indeed make a website (and it will be better than your, buuuuuuuu), but what you said seemed pretty defensive to me: "I already did my things my way, and I don't want to consider the possibility that there's a better way or that there may be some things wrong in my healing process or thinking; things are how they are, screwed or not, and I don't want to put that into discussion. Mind your own business. We can talk, of course, but my knowledge about these things is set in stone, talking about it would be analyzing, and that won't lead me to anything (maybe to confront yourself may I add?)." Is that what you were thinking? You know, I'm certainly open to discussion, and any reason you give me I will analyze, whether it makes me feel good or not. Of course it may seem as if I'm just a random ranter who has came to screw with you, but I ask you to read my words more critically and carefully, by what they are, not by my possible intentions. And if you feel attacked, please get rid of that anger first by whatever means you have, and then reread my words. I may be wrong, yeah, but maybe there's something pretty valuable in there for you. Oh, and if you consider it proper to demolish my arguments and send my ideas to Uranus with a well placed refutal, I would be very grateful. Even if it initially hurts, I'll face it, 'cause the truth is the truth, and the path to it can only help me heal more. Defenses my ass, if it triggers my symptoms that's a window to heal, and I won't run from it, as I didn't run from your words and Daniel's 6 months ago, even though they hurt like hell. And if by any casualty you think I'm trying to convince you as a daddy replacement, well, you may be right, I'm gonna work with that. It may be true, but is the fear of its possibility what I'm gonna attack first.

AND THE JOKE WAS CHEAP.

Punching the bed now.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 5:02 pm 
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I didn't say that anxiety is normal, I said it's a normal human reaction to abnormal situations. Prevent the abnormal situations and there's no anxiety. I guess I like to think that flying in a big aircraft is an abnormal situation and that heavy traffic isn't exactly soothing for the mind either. What I meant was that the first step in dealing with anxiety is admitting you have an anxiety and not being afraid of a confrontation with it. If you already have done a bunch of steps, great, but for someone not too familiar with human behavior, admitting it can be very frightening and it can strengthen the anxiety. Or that the anxiety shifts to another symbolic act-out.

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For example, as I already said, it leaves you alone with your symptoms, trying to figure them out, but not solving them.


Some things I've dealt with on my own and other stuff with the help of good friends. I agree that if a person insists of doing everything alone, it's going to take a lot of time and probably without any long-term success.

Besides Van Winkle, do you know any people who have reached post-flood according to her method? Isn't that an indication that her method isn't complete?

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Defenses my ass, if it triggers my symptoms that's a window to heal, and I won't run from it, as I didn't run from your words and Daniel's 6 months ago, even though they hurt like hell.


Which words hurt? The critique towards Van Winkle? I understand that everyone needs crutches to lean on to when being vulnerable and fragile while confronting suppressed childhood pain. If there are no supportive and understanding people around you, one looks for authors and internet people to hang on to. Anyone that can validate the hurt, that was denied as a child.

People who started their confrontation through the books of Miller, defended her. People who started with Stettbacher, defended him. People who started with Jean Jenson, defended her, and people who started with Van Winkle, defended her. Get my point? The enlightened witness takes on the role of a (good) parent. An abused child needs a good parent, so he ignores or denies anything that is hurtful or damaging.

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I will indeed make a website (and it will be better than your, buuuuuuuu), but what you said seemed pretty defensive to me: "I already did my things my way, and I don't want to consider the possibility that there's a better way or that there may be some things wrong in my healing process or thinking; things are how they are, screwed or not, and I don't want to put that into discussion. Mind your own business.


I surely didn't mean it as an attack. I'm serious, I welcome anyone who will start their own site and often I promised such people free help to set things up. Maybe you've noticed, but now and then people come to this forum and start yapping what I'm doing wrong without contributing anything that is right. It's always easy to complain, but complaining without wanting to improve anything is just acting-out. It's abuse. I've had 15 years of therapeutic correspondence, I've seen it all.

Dennis

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