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Childhood trauma and its consequences
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 11:50 am 
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Karin wrote:
You wrote: ?Miller has said several times that you can't demand a response from anyone and if you do, it's abusive.?
Very strange!!?? Isn?t this exactly as it could have been with our parents once??? You were not allowed to question them or ask (maybe not even kindly or quietly) for an explanation or answer!!?? Once again, if there was nothing to hide so what is the problem?? Think if I should deny my pupils answers on questions they pose!!! How would that be??


I suppose Alice Miller thinks from the perspective of the child. A parent cannot forcefully demand a reply from a child. But this situation, where the parent is the authoritarian with power and the child is DEPENDING on them is not similar to what happens on Forums, where people ask questions when they feel something went wrong. Then it's like you said, reversed, where the child is not allowed to question the authority. Alice Miller doesn't acknowledge this and doesn't want to discuss it.

Karin wrote:
I got a reply from Barbara, when she was still an ordinary subscriber, not the moderator, where she commented my use of question- and exclamation marks. I reacted very strongly on the way she did this. By then I had got so ?warm in the cloths? on the forum, and reacted on a lot of things (as I did almost from the beginning) and I wrote a reply back, where I said what I thought. I though how she wrote was very insensitive.


So all this about punctuation? I often see this, that people react on HOW things are said and not WHAT is being said. People read with a voice in their head, and this voice can emphasize certain words that the writer didn't. Then the bridge to the parent's voice is easily made and where strong reactions occur. In such cases it feels safer to react to the writer's words, than to the parents. Strange that Alice Miller or Barbara Rogers don't acknowledge that after all those years.

About schools... A few years ago they started an experiment in Kortedala in G?teborg, where classes were not bigger than 10 pupils. The result was that everyone's grades went up, bullying was severely decreased and teachers were less stressed. This may sound self-evident, but it's not happening on a larger scale. If all classes are cut in half and cut half in time, then we don't need extra teachers. But it's almost like we don't want to give children too much free time. Karin, did you ever read Summerhill School ( http://www.summerhillschool.co.uk/ ). In Holland there's an interesting school as well, where the children decide what and how they want to learn: http://www.aventurijn.org/english.php

Dennis


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 3:10 pm 
I am in a hurry, but that about schools, that's a huge topic! Yes, I know abut Summerhill... I read Pedagogy 20 academic points (the old system, it would be 30 points today) in Uppsala University (I didn't feel enough educated, as if I had a second class education and needed to be even better educated, which is very sad, but a side-track here), and we read about (oh, do I remember) Devey and all those...

I have cooperated with teachers in school, coming to their classes having music with the children (grades 1-3), singing, dancing, paying rhythm-instruments etc. with them as a preparation for the music-school. I liked it a lot!!!

I could say a lot about what I saw and reflected upon; how the teachers behaved and the results in the classes.

But I think, sad to say, that I can be a bit home-blind too, after working as a teacher for so many years... I try not to be.

This was the fairly easy to write a fast reply to (oh, what English!!). I will digest and read your reply to that with ourchildhood.int better.

Now practicing piano before I go to the music-school playing with three of our students.

Karin


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 7:59 pm 
Dennis,

You wrote: ?I suppose Alice Miller thinks from the perspective of the child.?
I misinterpreted you? (now I shall try not use so many question or exclamation marks!). But here it was about grown up people. Miller has written about our wish for genuine, real communication. Necessary to avoid misinterpretations and misunderstandings. But I think our reactions on things, ach others etc. could have told us things, if we had explored them. And I thought we should have done that if it was necessary.

You wrote: ?A parent cannot forcefully demand a reply from a child. But this situation, where the parent is the authoritarian with power and the child is DEPENDING on them is not similar to what happens on Forums, where people ask questions when they feel something went wrong.?

Karin: Or when they wonder about things, to clear things out. No, a grown up (parent, teacher etc.) has to respect if a child doesn?t want to answer? Because to get a reply can be a sign of confidence, something to value a lot for the grown up.

Grownups must be able (and try) to communicate what they feel and senses in a constructive manner. All parts involved interested in this.

Because they want to develop as human beings (Isn?t it this that made people start to write to such a forum). You must be able to articulate things, in a safe place. Maybe articulate things one has never articulated before?

But I guess this can be very difficult, with projections etc.

And people on a list with moderators aren?t there on equal terms!? An ordinary list-member can?t unsub another list-member. But a moderator has this power. And has the power to reject posts. But I think one has to (should) give a motivation of some kind for a refusal of a post. A moderator has more responsibility for what happens and how things are dealt with.

Millers reactions to you was ?strange?, she put things in your mouth?
A female physician (psychiatrist and Gestalt therapist) said to me that she has a cock-horse and that is not to say: ?You are?? Easy to resort to though. Especially when there are hot feelings involved. But I think that is something good to remember. Because does it lead to anything if I say: ?You are so? this and that!!? Doesn?t things then get stuck there. For what does the other part answer: ?No, I am not!!? And the focus has switched, hasn?t it? Oh, expressing this in words? A feeling I try to catch (capture??).

You wrote: ?Then it's like you said, reversed, where the child is not allowed to question the authority. Alice Miller doesn't acknowledge this and doesn't want to discuss it.?

Karin: No, and that?s strange, because she has written about these things herself?

You wrote: ?So all this about punctuation? I often see this, that people react on HOW things are said and not WHAT is being said. People read with a voice in their head, and this voice can emphasize certain words that the writer didn't. Then the bridge to the parent's voice is easily made and where strong reactions occur. In such cases it feels safer to react to the writer's words, than to the parents. Strange that Alice Miller or Barbara Rogers don't acknowledge that after all those years.?

Karin: Yes, it is very strange! The one with more power has more responsibility than the one wit less power! And has to be prepared to question her/himself. But of course self-knowledge is advantageous. For ones own sake and for all ones ?customers? (!!!). To know what is about oneself and what is not. Maybe we never reach that point when this is absolutely clear, but we have to strive towards this goal. I as teacher have to? How shall I express this? And I wish I was better on this, that I knew when critic is fair and when it is not?

If one can?t talk about things, then what sort of milieu is created? A similar to the one that had harmed maybe all of us on the list? Is that therapeutically?

And Miller has written that there are maybe as many paths to ?healing? as there are people? Wouldn?t that mean letting people on a list like find their own roads to more freedom, witnessed by others, hopefully inspiring others finding their own paths? I don?t know?

But I got a feeling (and this is perhaps only standing for myself) that Miller influenced the whole (via BobS?), she gave him hints about what person on the list he should kick out? Because she was tired of her/him? He/she thought to freely over things, was too free, or developed in that direction?
Millers spirit hang over the list? And people had that in mind, when they wrote? Censoring people? Is that healing? Adapting to something? Controlling things? Maybe I only speak for myself here?

Forcing a child to answer, not hide anything: ?What is it???? Being like an open book. I have experiences of this?

Karin


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 12:11 am 
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We only know Alice Miller as a writer and she writes from the perspective of the child. But the danger is that she let the child consciousness take over and react as a child. That's okay of course, but it would be nice if she admits that later. The more I think of it, the more I realize how little Alice Miller writes about herself, her own pain, her own struggles.

Yes, we want to develop as human beings. Or better, we want to take it back what it means: to be human again. We were dehumanized in our childhood, slice by slice.

Miller's reaction to me in 2001 was strange coming from a woman who discovered the poisonous pedagogy, to be such an authoritarian bully herself all of a sudden. I told this to a well-known therapist in Belgium (who wrote brilliant books and expanded on Miller and Janov's discoveries) and he wrote that he simply didn't believe it was Miller. That it was some secretary of hers. That's denial as well, because even if that would be the case, such fraud wouldn't be condoned by an honest person and Miller would have rectified it. She had nothing to lose by being honest but the way she chose to behave has caused a severe drop in readers of her books.

Karin, you mention several times projections and it's good that you are aware of these. For me re-directing frustrations and anger towards my parents, helped me feel the pain. And the more pain I felt, the less repressed I became. But we often re-create the struggle instead, seek out people who frustrate us, don't listen to us, ignore us, so we can act out again our pain.

Karin wrote:
A female physician (psychiatrist and Gestalt therapist) said to me that she has a cock-horse and that is not to say: ?You are?? Easy to resort to though. Especially when there are hot feelings involved. But I think that is something good to remember. Because does it lead to anything if I say: ?You are so? this and that!!? Doesn?t things then get stuck there. For what does the other part answer: ?No, I am not!!? And the focus has switched, hasn?t it? Oh, expressing this in words? A feeling I try to catch (capture??).


Could you explain a bit more what you mean with this paragraph. For me psychiatry and Gestalt is so much filled with poison that I wouldn't take any advice from them. But saying to a person something about him or herself, is an expression as well. What's the difference between thinking it and saying it? Or can we bring this back to: thou shall not question your parent?

Dennis


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 12:41 pm 
Dennis,

Here a very long reply:

You wrote: ?We only know Alice Miller as a writer and she writes from the perspective of the child. But the danger is that she let the child consciousness take over and react as a child. That's okay of course, but it would be nice if she admits that later. The more I think of it, the more I realize how little Alice Miller writes about herself, her own pain, her own struggles.?

Karin: Yes, I agree that it would be nice if she could admit this later. When she has thought over it, showing that she too is willing to develop/change even high up in ages. She would gain on this too! In credibility for her own ideas and theories, and what she has tried to say.

And this makes me wonder too: does she want to destroy what she has tried to inform ?the world? about? Is this something self-destructive? A bitter old woman that has met so much questioning and resistance (which we maybe can?t really imagine, or?) with all illusions lost?

She has written about this herself I think; how one can react at clients/patients, things that are almost impossible to control. Which probably are things one hasn?t processed yet, even as an experienced therapist (as I have interpreted her at least).

Yes, admit wrongdoings! Especially in circumstances which resemble therapy as much as forums like ourchildhood.int, a forum which has her ?quality-sign? over itself on top!!! Yes, of course she is seen as an authority, with all what that means and with the responsibility which follows that authority!? Yes, by this I think she has a certain responsibility!! We are entitled to expect this and have high demands on her. How much she even is a human being as all of us. If her theories are holding?? That our problems are caused to the largest degree and primarily by early things and not by genes or biology.

Which also means that ?strange? reactions on a forum like this probably is caused by early things (and not only ?probably? but is caused by early things!?). And thus is curable or should be curable. Is she still caught in psychoanalytical ideas? About resistance and all that?? That people don?t really want to change or develop?? Or maybe even that people are born evil??? As she seems to have treated people one could believe this??

Yes, maybe there are such people that doesn?t want to develop. But I think this so called resistance is very natural, because the things we are dealing with are painful to that degree that the whole organism goes on protecting us against the truth. Despite all good will. So even the most willing has problems with this!?

Dennis: ?Miller's reaction to me in 2001 was strange coming from a woman who discovered the poisonous pedagogy, to be such an authoritarian bully herself all of a sudden.?

Karin: Yes, I agree!!! She said to you: You are and you do!! Not interested in exploring what the whole was about? What the reactions was about, both from others on the forum and from you. What substance it was in it. I experience what you wrote as trying o honestly understand and deal with what had come up. And I think one must be able and allowed to question things honestly. If there is nothing to hide o what is the problem?? Which makes wonder if there really WAS something to hide?? What if so??

Dennis: ?I told this to a well-known therapist in Belgium (who wrote brilliant books and expanded on Miller and Janov's discoveries) and he wrote that he simply didn't believe it was Miller. That it was some secretary of hers. That's denial as well, because even if that would be the case, such fraud wouldn't be condoned by an honest person and Miller would have rectified it.?

Karin: I agree again! Miller has a responsibility nevertheless. And if it wasn?t she but a secretary why not say or write that? And who belongs to ?the team??? I have wondered too, as you have done here. Is this secret?

And see the parallels here in Sweden recently with the politician Maud Olofsson who should chat with people, but it showed that she had double booked her, so she had asked another person to answer in her place, but none was told that she was replaced!!! People thought they were chatting with Maud Olofsson? People reacted very strongly on this! Felt fooled and maybe even betrayed.

Dennis: ?She had nothing to lose by being honest but the way she chose to behave has caused a severe drop in readers of her books.?

Karin: Yes, that?s true!!! The risk is that she looses in respectability on this!! Yes, that people doubt her ideas and beliefs too!! So I wonder if there is something self-destructive involved? Of destroying what she so passionately has tried to tell the world for almost 30 years??

And the last book that as translated to Swedish was ?Paths of Life?? I have wondered over this. But it can have something to do with rends and tendencies in therapy here? People have read her books and sought therapy nd the therapists haven?t been able to help their clients with their insights or provide the therapy people has wanted after reading Miller?s books and this has been taken as Millers ideas are wrong and dangerous?
Not that there is something wrong with the help in itself??

The third and last therapist I had, a psychologist, said after a while: ?Haven?t we spoken enough of childhood now??!!?

Dennis: ?Karin, you mention several times projections and it's good that you are aware of these. For me re-directing frustrations and anger towards my parents, helped me feel the pain. And the more pain I felt, the less repressed I became. But we often re-create the struggle instead, seek out people who frustrate us, don't listen to us, ignore us, so we can act out again our pain.?

Karin: Yes, I think you are right. But I think projections aren?t avoidable, least in those circumstances, and then you have to deal with them in some way (maybe extremely difficult though). And yes, we are often stuck with those people and drawn to them? To realize and admit that?

What I reacted on at ourchildhood was that there were people there who had been members almost since the start and to me (then) it felt as they hadn?t come anywhere? As if this place had become a safe place? Not really led to autonomy? I reacted with astonishment and a dropped cheek?

And that about Gestalt-therapy: yes, it?s quite manipulative?

Dennis: ?Could you explain a bit more what you mean with this paragraph. For me psychiatry and Gestalt is so much filled with poison that I wouldn't take any advice from them. But saying to a person something about him or herself, is an expression as well. What's the difference between thinking it and saying it? Or can we bring this back to: thou shall not question your parent??

Karin: How shall I put this? I am not sure I am entirely clear over something I feel here?

But I think this is true, especially in situations when there are a lot of emotions involved. I can see a picture of how people can end up standing there shouting at each others: ?You are?!!!? ?And I think you are?!!!?

That the strength in ones feelings has to do with something in the past? But then you should get an opportunity too to explore what this is about, especially in a therapy and it has be dealt wit on a forum like ourchildhood (maybe not all agree, people come with a lot of different expectations to a forum like this?)!!! Which you often don?t get help with in Gestalt. Instead you are learnt to cope with the help of a lot of strategies. They are afraid people will go mad if they try to go deeper??? The only option or solution is to learn coping strategies??

What I felt in psychodynamic therapy (the one with the psychiatrist and psychotherapist, and later in a Gestalt-group and at last with a psychologist) is that one is treated as one is dull I a way (as I probably was treated by my dad). As if one couldn?t talk openly about the possible roots to ones problems? Or (I am trying to express something I just feel again) as one wasn?t a thinking, honestly reflecting human being?

My first therapist didn?t want to listen to what I had read (Miller and Stettbacher). He said

?I am not Stettbacher!!?

I dropped my cheek and thought for myself, astonished: ?No, I haven?t said that. Haven?t thought that! I am not sure I want you to be ? or do I want that???

Later he suddenly said: ?This isn?t Gestalt-therapy!!?

I dropped my cheek again and thought for myself (once again): ?But I haven?t even mentioned Gestalt, and by the way, I don?t know what it is. I haven?t read about it either!!?

And later when I HAD been in Gestalt-therapy (a group meeting four weekends during a space of almost 6 months) I established with astonishment and irony (and anger?) that he didn?t know, so psychiatrist he was, what Gestalt is!!?

What about discussing my thoughts and feelings around what I had read (Even if what I had read was rubbish). Treated as I was dull! Exploring if there was some substance in what I had read and my thoughts and reactions to this? Tapped on my head!! Maybe this had to do with him (only???), was insecurity? A low self-esteem? Despite his prestigious education!!

Things that had with him to do entirely?? And his experiences in turn with a parent maybe?? A parent that refused to listen to him once, how intelligently he even resonated, or the more intelligent he resonated? I don?t know?

Now using his position to be on top in a way, even if this wasn?t conscious?

And later in the Gestalt-group when we did a lot of exercises I suddenly wondered: But why are we doing all those things? Why not talk about what it is about? Or haven?t I understood anything?? As good children we did all these exercises. A sigh?

After those years in therapy with this man I was so confused that I put Miller?s books away behind other books in my bookcase? And when I suddenly saw that she had written a new book ?Paths of Life? (or ?Life paths?) which existed in Swedish (?V?gar I livet?), I couldn?t read the story about Helga and her experiences in therapy? It took a long time before I could?

Yes, it is important that therapists have worked their own things through as much as possible! And that they are prepared to go on doing this if and when it is necessary. Both for their own as for their clients sake. So they know what belongs to themselves and what belongs to others.

Projections are unavoidable? And you have to be able to deal with them to be able to go further with other things? And that all parts involved are prepared to do this honestly.

It was someone on the forum that said that she wished these things would no longer belong to psychiatry and psychology? Yes, they have a lot of stuff to shake off?? The home blindness??

Yes, think if physicians for example asked about early experiences when they are taking up the story of the client?

Some morning thoughts?

Yes, I can see how I react on people, what they write and how they write and wonder about it?

Karin


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 5:56 pm 
Karin, something you wrote triggered me.
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The third and last therapist I had, a psychologist, said after a while: "Haven't we spoken enough of childhood now?"

No doubt you realized this really means the therapist didn't want to speak more about it. But she/he used the dishonest word "we". As if it was a joint realization. What is the point of a psychologist becoming a therapist if she doesn't understand that a client may need to explore unfinished business from childhood -- until her client feels that all the necessary connections have been made. I don't know what your psychologist wanted to do instead.

If a psychologist is not a actually a healer, but a pedagogue, she/he may believe that her job is to "teach" coping strategies. That's a symptom of misguided assumptions underlying many schools of psychotherapy. I think it's dishonest or deluded to claim that teaching 'strategies' is something other than 'skills training'. That's teaching, not psychotherapy. It shouldn't be advertised as 'therapy'. The practitioners should be honest and call themselves "coping skills trainers". The word "psychotherapy" becomes devalued if they use it for skills training. It just turns the search for a therapist who cares about your feelings into a difficult task. Dictionary publishers should add a caveat to definitions of the word to warn the public that it's often misused by 'skills trainers'.

If skills training actually improves coping abilities and interpersonal relationships, it should be taught in schools -- for the benefit of society as a whole. Otherwise, only a minority of citizens are going to pay for it. And then, only in later life.

In fact, I think one of Alice Miller's blind spots is that she recommends to readers that they seek an 'enlighted' therapist. But that leads to problems because ideal therapists are very few and far between. Most of her readers will encounter the same experiences as you describe. Authoritarian figures who treat their clients as "dull" and brush aside their real concerns. Maybe there is no ideal solution if a reader can't find a genuine enlighted witness who doesn't behave like someone with 'superior' knowledge. In effect, Miller is encouraging readers to enter into a struggle that doesn't often turn out well. The readers' mail on her site confirms it. Only a small number of emails report that they found an ideal therapist.

My feeling is that egalitarian support groups for people who have recognized the the real roots of their distress are the best way. But many seekers of psychotherapy are repressed and don't know the real roots. If they are lucky, they may read a book which opens their eyes to what they have been hiding from themselves. If they are unlucky, they choose books written by conventional psychologists and therapists -- who, collectively, have failed to improve treatment outcomes significantly. Of course, conventional psychologists and therapists won't admit it. Usually, they make unsubstantiated claims to the contrary. When those psychologists reach retirement age they will be faced with the truth.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 8:47 pm 
D.R.B.,

In the midst of practising piano here: I reacted too on this of course, that he thought we had spoken enough about childhood (?you know one can?t, it can be too much!? is it so many therapists thinks they shall react? I try to understand this). And a while later he (because it was a he not a she!) said: ?I think I can help you!? as a reply to something I had said. And that made me see warning-flags: ?No, not another saviour!? So I ended the therapy soon after this.

You wrote: ?What is the point of a psychologist becoming a therapist if she doesn't understand that a client may need to explore unfinished business from childhood -- until her client feels that all the necessary connections have been made.?

Karin: So true!! What?s the point?

D.R.B.: I don't know what your psychologist wanted to do instead.

Karin: So true that too! I haven?t thought of it: what did he want to do instead?? What were we there for too?

D.R.B.: If a psychologist is not a actually a healer, but a pedagogue, she/he may believe that her job is to ?teach? coping strategies. That's a symptom of misguided assumptions underlying many schools of psychotherapy.

Karin: Yes, is it so?? Are they after all pedagogues?? Or do they see themselves as that (though not consciously)? Yes, is it a misguided assumption underlying many (maybe almost all??) schools of therapy?

D.R.B.: I think it's dishonest or deluded to claim that teaching ?strategies? is something other than ?skills training?.

Karin: So true again! They should say that they are skills trainers?? Phew I say!! Do I have to be clever again entering a therapy-office?? The clever, good girl? Maybe even a virtuoso? Observe the (self)irony.

D.R.B.: I think it's dishonest or deluded to claim that teaching ?strategies? is something other than ?skills training?. That's teaching, not psychotherapy. It shouldn't be advertised as ?therapy?. The practitioners should be honest and call themselves "coping skills trainers". The word "psychotherapy" becomes devalued if they use it for skills training. It just turns the search for a therapist who cares about your feelings into a difficult task.

Karin: Yes, difficult was the word! And how well said!

D.R.B.: If skills training actually improves coping abilities and interpersonal relationships, it should be taught in schools -- for the benefit of society as a whole.

Karin: Yes, how clever of you!! You are wise!! Yes, if it is about this why don?t we?? It would save a lot of money! For the society not least!

D.R.B.: In fact, I think one of Alice Miller's blind spots is that she recommends to readers that they seek an 'enlighted' therapist. But that leads to problems because ideal therapists are very few and far between. Most of her readers will encounter the same experiences as you describe. Authoritarian figures who treat their clients as "dull" and brush aside their real concerns. Maybe there is no ideal solution if a reader can't find a genuine enlighted witness who doesn't behave like someone with 'superior' knowledge.

Karin: Yes, she seems to have blind spots? Yes, I also think ideal therapists are few and far between.

Authoritarian figures yes, which has to maintain their power and superiority? At last? At last have someone under them, someone dependent on them and seeing up at them? Even if they probably aren?t aware of this fact. That?s what they are taught too during their training?

When I was 33 I had started to awake with agony in the mornings. My seven year younger sister had got her first child. I had no children, no family or anything, was only working, and working hard. My maternal grandfather died this spring (in February I think) 87 years. My maternal grandmother had died 2 years earlier, on her 91st year. So now I had taken a step up in generations. These grandparents stood me nearer than my paternal (they died a little more than 10 years earlier, 88 and 86 years old). I had been working hard at work too, with a new, young boss, a very enthusiastic and creative?

I wonder if I had landed in an early 40-year crisis. ?Was this all?? Where am I going? Is it like this my whole life is going? In the same pattern/manner??

And I thought one shouldn?t feel as I felt, so I contacted the psychiatric clinic where I live. They wanted me to write a self-admission note (sj?lvremiss in Swedish).I got no reply and started my summer-vacation, and an education, a second to church-musician. During this I got a time with a female psychotherapist (educated from Social College in the bottom).

The background to why and how I landed in therapy.

During the fall my youngest sister came to the town where I lived to practice during he education at School for Social Workers (college). She practised at the psychiatric clinic here. Once when I visited her there lay a book on her bed. Miller?s first book, I read the cover and thought it was about me. She had borrowed it at the library at the hospital (the biggest hospital in this county). In it it was a message pasted from the librarian something about this book that it was difficult to read and/or grasp.

But I bought it and read it. I was in the midst of the therapy and got very anguish again, even worse than earlier?

But then I felt validated by her book that I wasn?t dull. I had started to doubt on myself entirely? So no, I am not dull? But this male therapist, whom I contacted in May because the female therapist should leave her workplace, ignored what I had read, and what I had written.

Once in the beginning I happened to mention that I wrote a lot, wrote diary, and he then replied immediately that maybe not all would reach him. I got cold with fear (!!!! Think if I did anything wrong! Horrible!) so I sent him my ?productions?! With all my thoughts and reflections. No reactions on anything of it. I don?t know if it was me who should have taken what I had written up with him? (he was psycho-dynamically oriented?).

This resembles how my dad behaved towards me?? Both these two men with longer educations than I!!! Needing to demonstrate their superiority?

Maybe this was his ?method? too?? Phew! No indignation ever from him. He instilled even more guilt in me? By saying a one occasion that one could lively understand how my dad felt in a situation? But this is a long story (both the therapy and about my parents).

Yes, on a walk this afternoon I thought that in many cases it is perhaps better to deal with it on ones own? The best one can.

But the sad thing is that for the ones less needing help it is easier to leave a bad therapy, the more harmed the more difficult?

Hug to you, warm and sisterly :-)
Karin


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 Post subject: About Schools
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 6:20 pm 
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In Holland there's an interesting school as well, where the children decide what and how they want to learn.
.

In Norway they've started a similar school, called Nyskolen (The New School), which supposedly is based on the same principles, that the children decide for themselves what and how to learn, and when to learn it. However, this seems to be a sham, as the teachers themselves are still stuck in old beliefs about teaching, the need for discipline, and a general lack of confidence in children's ability to learn the natural way.

In fact, my soon-to-turn-8-years-old son attends this school. Having grown up in an atmosphere of understanding and mutual respect, he is a very bright, spontaneous and sensitive boy, who never poses problems for anyone. Thus, the school's headmaster gave me a bit of a shock when she said she wants me to sign this paper allowing to have him checked by a team of pedagogues and psychologists, obviously for the sole reason that he sometimes gets bored in class, and refuses to do the boring work he is being told to do. Those are the guys who put kids who don't comply on Ritalin! When disappointed, my son also tends to cry easily, as I've never discouraged his crying. It seems like the staff at school get scared by this, and don't know how to handle it.

Another thing that I react negatively to, is how the school demands that the students clean the classrooms with soap and scrubbers every friday afternoon, whether they want it or not. This is what I call child labour!

It's painful to see how teachers and psychologists destroy perfectly healthy kids by forcing them to do the school work that the teachers decide, and never question the teachers' ability to understand and respect the needs and wishes of the children.

I don't think I'll sign that paper.

Any thoughts or advice?


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 10:05 pm 
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Karin, thanks for explaining more about your background and ideas. I suppose the personal questions to Alice Miller can only be answered by herself. Like you, I also wondered who her team is. On her old Forum there was one web designer called Monique who answered sometimes. But nowadays, the team is like an invisible Big Brother, though Barbara is there sometimes and she also pays for the website host.

I haven't read Paths of Life. After her book Breaking Down the Wall of Silence, it was quiet for 10 years I think. Then came Path of Life and I kept hearing from people what a disappointed book it was.

What you write about your psychologists/psychiatrists, I agree with DRB. They were the ones being manipulative and being scared. And these are not exceptions in the world of therapy, but rather standard procedure. But they feel confident by what they believe because they have that diploma from years of schooling, and never had time to question anything.

Therapists are parent-defenders. Otherwise they would have the parents on the chair and not their victims.

Maybe projections cannot be avoided but a growing awareness can detect them. If one is honest. And it's not easy at all. It's probably the most difficult thing to do. There's so much denial and illusions to deal with, which don't disappear overnight.

Shouting can be abusive. But some shouting can be basic emotional expression. People have the ability to shout, so it's there for a reason. It really is how your parents talk to you when they were angry. Anger shouldn't be suppressed, though some people (especially Christian people) see it as a big taboo. I know for people who shout easily, it's difficult to whisper. And people who have soft voices, they have a hard time shouting.

Tom, seems like your school has some contradictions. Keep your child as far away from pedagogues and psychologists as you can. Send the teachers instead, if they feel there's something wrong.

Tom wrote:
... refuses to do the boring work he is being told to do.


I thought the school was about having the child choose what to do and what to learn? And cleaning the classroom? Is that an effort to teach them responsibility for their actions? Sounds like the school is turning into a sect.

Dennis


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