wallsofsilence.com

Childhood trauma and its consequences
It is currently Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:21 pm

All times are UTC + 1 hour [ DST ]




Forum locked This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 22 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 10:37 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 2:06 am
Posts: 486
Location: Sweden
The movie selection for this month is Right to Kill, a television movie from 1985 based on the true story of the Jahnke family, whose abusive father was murdered by his teenage son. More info here:
http://wallsofsilence.com/index.php?page=the-film-club

If you want to see this movie, send me a pm.

Dennis

_________________
Everything I write here is my opinion, not absolute truths but I don't want to start every sentence with in my opinion...


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 6:22 pm 
Some notes during the film (angry, indignantly and with tears in my eyes):

He made his son a murderer!!!
And the mom got “free” from an abusive husband…
The children were convicted though?
The MOM had had a hard time!! But the children then??
To carry this the rest or his/their life/lives…
The mother didn’t admit "it", didn’t want to face what was going on…
- Did you think about the consequences, what would happen??
Could he??
-There must have been other solutions?
- I know it NOW!!!
But were there?
The children felt extremely bad, ridden by mares…
But their mom?? How did she see it? How did she react, resonate?
The mom was relieved?? Went to bed calmly, kissing the cross??
Accusing her son!
-What Richard and Deborah did they had learned from you and your husband! a man said to the mom.
-He killed my husband!! We were a respectable family! Your father is dead forever!!!
Were they a respectable family?? Socially isolated rather??
Yes, she hugged him at last!! Forgiving him!?
But living with this the rest of ones life…
Yes, Rich was convicted and Deborah sentenced… The mom survived this better mentally than her children?? Not ridden by mares as they?

Karin


Report this post
Top
  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 6:57 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 2:06 am
Posts: 486
Location: Sweden
Thanks for the comments, Karin. When the mom says: We were a respectable family, the daughter Deborah said to her mom: We were never a family. I recognized a lot of the denial in the mom, protecting her husband and not her children, to the bitter end. I see it as self-defense; Richard could have easily be killed by his dad, after being attacked by so many times and knowing that his sister couldn't stand up against her dad, not even their own mom.

Also the dad couldn't care less to make a scene and lose his temper in the restaurant, something my own dad had in common with him (making a scene in public). Instead of the mom leaving, she apologizes all the time for him and worries every day if (his) dinner is ready on time. And how to put up a respectable mask in front of the police or social worker, convincing him that nothing bad is happening, while the kids are scared to death sitting on the couch.

This movie shows the innocence of the children, their little happy moments in sharp contrast of the massive physical, emotional and sexual abuse that they suffer.

Dennis

_________________
Everything I write here is my opinion, not absolute truths but I don't want to start every sentence with in my opinion...


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 8:51 pm 
Dennis,

In a pause in practicing piano: Some personal reflections triggered by your reply and the film… Spontaneously (and is it almost only me writing here??).

Quote:
Dennis wrote: …the daughter Deborah said to her mom: We were never a family.


Karin: I didn’t catch that!? But great!! She could see that at least!! Admit to that! She wasn’t entirely in denial!? Thanks to some people around? The neighbour? Her (art-) teacher??

Actually, it has stricken me an experience I had myself when I was 10 I think, when I visited a class-mate in her family… Ate with them I think? And the tone in the family… A sort of astonishment over it?? An openness, friendliness?

And once I came home (also not more than 10 years, because it happened on a place we moved from when I was 10, 5) when I came home for supper (I think), the whole family gathered at the table. I came there full with confidence and gladness… Because a young man had said to me that I was “söt” that I was cute!!

As if dad couldn’t stand that/it?? Someone (and least one of his daughters) coming home radiating with something, a confidence in themselves!? As if this had to be stricken down??

And especially at this occasion (there were a lot of troubles at that work, things we lived with, and had to take, as children too. And, in fact, dad had often problems with women at his work-places, especially strong women!??? Strong and independent women!?? Many female teachers then weren’t married, and on the agricultural schools we lived there was also rural domestic schools: what environment one grew up in, divided in that way: a school for boys and a few young women too, and the other for only young women!!)…

But at the same time dad couldn’t stand weakness either!!??

When we lived at this particular school I had a real crisis (something occurred, and I am still not sure what), panic-attacks, expressing themselves as problems to swallow food and I felt as if I didn’t get any oxygen! Which I of course did. I was taken to a psychologist, which tested my IQ!!! And that was it. I took myself in the collar and got back to school again, after three weeks being from it…

I should “train” to go by the school-bus to school, not being driven by car. Mom and dad followed me to the bus. We had to walk for I don’t know 10-15 minutes. The bus came and I ran to it, but regretted and didn’t enter the bus, but went or run back to mom and dad, I can still feel the shame over doing so, and the whole bus saw it (at least in my experience).

We went back the 10-15 minutes road… I behind mom and dad. Dad extremely dissatisfied, angry! Mom following him… I felt when I walked there behind them: “they shall get rid of me!! I shall disappear!” And I took a path right out into the forest! But I didn’t dare to go so far…

And later when I was in therapy (had sought this therapist, a male myself) in my early thirties I told him this story – and this therapist didn’t react! Or he even laughed? Or just smiled. As if this was ok for a father (and mother to do)!!?? Today I don’t think it is…

Quote:
Dennis wrote: I recognized a lot of the denial in the mom, protecting her husband and not her children, to the bitter end. I see it as self-defense; Richard could have easily be killed by his dad, after being attacked by so many times and knowing that his sister couldn't stand up against her dad, not even their own mom.


Karin: No, she didn’t seem to think in those patterns!!! At what risk they had been in!! What could have happened!

And again, I spoke with my mom this week and how it had been on the schools where we lived… One of her comments was all troubles dad had as head for the schools, with economy, people etc. How they struggled. I just dropped my cheek: But hello, doesn’t it exist at all in your mind how all this was for us?? Does she think we were protected from this??? But hey!!

Quote:
Dennis wrote: Also the dad couldn't care less to make a scene and lose his temper in the restaurant, something my own dad had in common with him (making a scene in public).


Karin: No, it didn’t bother him the embarrassment! And humiliation! Oh, have you experienced this?? When they should have it nice celebrating the anniversary of their wedding...

Quote:
Dennis: Instead of the mom leaving, she apologizes all the time for him and worries every day if (his) dinner is ready on time. And how to put up a respectable mask in front of the police or social worker, convincing him that nothing bad is happening, while the kids are scared to death sitting on the couch.


Karin: Yes, that she didn’t leave!!! Always apologising!! Yes, what an experience for Rich when he was confronted with the family after he had been so badly hit so they were afraid his kidneys had been injured/damaged!! And his sister looked everywhere else than on him. His mother betrayed him too. And his father scarcely hid how he actually was! As I saw it.

Quote:
Dennis: This movie shows the innocence of the children, their little happy moments in sharp contrast of the massive physical, emotional and sexual abuse that they suffer.


Karin: So true… There were nice moments. As they seemed to be able to anjoy??

But my dad wasn’t as violent as this father… He got outbursts, had very little patience, and got easily irritated. Maybe he could shoved or pushed… But he was very strong physically, and one could feel threatened that way?? When we worked together everything should go so fast and swift!!! From there I have my “effectiveness”? In no time at all I have done things, but not making a big deal of it??

But I have a weak memory I was beaten when I was pretty small, to learn a lesson. And I think we were threatened with dad if we didn’t behave or were too noise sometimes??

I have probably forgotten things. A lot??

But I get an impression your dad was maybe even worse?? Or?

Hug (kram)
Karin

PS. By the way, you write a very good, an excellent Swedish!! As a Swede!  I have noticed with a smile from the (brief) emails we have exchanged around this film, when I choose to write in Swedish.


Report this post
Top
  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 1:12 am 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 2:06 am
Posts: 486
Location: Sweden
I think Deborah and Richard could see their father as being bad because he was also abusing their mom. That's a different scenario then if both parents would only abuse the kids. They met some good people, which made them more aware of the difference at home. The fact that he shot his dad, resulted in a movie and a book but many families have similar lives. Think of all those kids who run away from home to escape from the abuse, those that kill themselves or just try to survive and leave the house when they are 18.

Karin wrote:
When we lived at this particular school I had a real crisis (something occurred, and I am still not sure what), panic-attacks, expressing themselves as problems to swallow food and I felt as if I didn’t get any oxygen! Which I of course did. I was taken to a psychologist, which tested my IQ!!! And that was it. I took myself in the collar and got back to school again, after three weeks being from it…


It strikes me that panic attacks always go back - partly - to the core trauma, in your case not getting oxygen (in another thread you mentioned you were blue when you were born; an acute shortage of oxygen). And then getting an IQ test? Again, why does no one ever talk with a child, instead of exposing it to all kinds of ridiculous tests.

Karin wrote:
Actually, it has stricken me an experience I had myself when I was 10 I think, when I visited a class-mate in her family… Ate with them I think? And the tone in the family… A sort of astonishment over it?? An openness, friendliness?


Such experiences can be crucial for a child, to see a family where everyone is relaxed and natural. Sad to read that your dad couldn't stand your gladness. Is that because of a protestant background; that you're not supposed to enjoy yourself in this world? Isn't that typical in the history of Sweden, this lurking pessimism, which is also portrayed in many movies.

Karin wrote:
No, it didn’t bother him the embarrassment! And humiliation! Oh, have you experienced this?? When they should have it nice celebrating the anniversary of their wedding...


Oh yes, my parents behaved like automatic robots on special days or anniversaries. I remember my dad stretching out his hand on New Year's Day wishing me a happy new year, while the day before he cursed me to hell and back. I refused to participate in that hypocrisy and he got upset about that. Their entire lives they argued every day about the most silly things you can imagine and there's really nothing positive about their marriage, but still they celebrate their wedding anniversary each year. And the weird thing is, when my sisters had problems with their boyfriends, they would come home and tell my mom about it, as if she was an expert on relationships. My dad used to make huge scenes in public, screaming really loud. Very embarrassing when I was a kid. And he also used to smash things across the living room at night, just like the dad in the movie, and me covering my ears on my bed.

Karin wrote:
But I have a weak memory I was beaten when I was pretty small, to learn a lesson. And I think we were threatened with dad if we didn’t behave or were too noise sometimes??


What lesson was that, you think?

A few more words about weakness. It can be also a matter of interpretation. Admitting a weakness, for example being claustrophobic, doesn't mean you have to accept it as being a physical handicap. A weakness can be scary if there's some kind of punishment attached to it, like your dad made you feel. Sometimes a weakness can be a strength, for example crying, which is seen in my family as a weakness, while it's really a merit.

Dennis

P.S. I can handle Swedish in 'normal' daily life, but I can't debate in Swedish, especially when I get emotional in my language.

_________________
Everything I write here is my opinion, not absolute truths but I don't want to start every sentence with in my opinion...


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 6:27 pm 
Dennis,

I want to comment one thing.

Quote:
You wrote: What lesson was that, you think?

I have no idea. A small girl beaten by a man, her father. Almost ten times older and more than ten times heavier than she. But one thing is sure, she didn't learn the lesson! She was probably not beaten too much!
I wonder if that is what you actually think?
Karin


Report this post
Top
  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 6:47 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 2:06 am
Posts: 486
Location: Sweden
I'm just curious because you wrote that you couldn't remember it very clearly. So you don't remember the lesson but you do remember that you didn't learn it. Isn't there a contradiction in there somewhere? In my opinion, a child that doesn't learn the lesson, gets beaten again. That's what happen with me. I never gave in and my father used to ask if I had enough, and I always said no because I didn't want to give him the gratification that he could beat me into obedience. So he would just keep beating me and keep asking me, until he would start freaking out and send me to me room. Nevertheless, I did pay a high price for denying that pain back then because for a long time I didn't take pain in my body seriously when I got hurt and would just continue with what I was doing. When I became 14, my dad stopped beating me because I was getting stronger and maybe he got afraid I would start beating back.

I often wondered about the experience a girl must feel when she gets beaten as a small child. A boy thinks that one day he will be physically stronger, which can help in his rebellion but a girl must really feel devastated and defenseless.

Dennis

_________________
Everything I write here is my opinion, not absolute truths but I don't want to start every sentence with in my opinion...


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 6:55 pm 
Dennis,

I thought you should understand that I was ironical... Because that's how it is: a child that is beaten often (maybe almost always) don't know for what it is beaten actually. But has to protect itself by thinking it deserved it.

Your question actually resulted in this in me: http://reflektionerochspeglingaralicemi ... ughts.html

Karin


Report this post
Top
  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 12:06 am 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 2:06 am
Posts: 486
Location: Sweden
I've read your blog post, Karin. You wrote there: 'So tired. Tired to death. Tired of working and working, struggling and struggling... To please all and everyone'

This is what I mean with body memories. Your body remembers something that hasn't fully reached your mind yet. And in this lies the power of having a confrontation with your childhood because it improves our current lives. I see a 4 year old girl being beaten by a huge dad (which is horribly disgusting of course) and then decides to please her dad instead of herself to avoid being spanked and humiliated again. Anything to avoid a confrontation. If you don't understand why you were beaten now, that little girl would surely not understand it either. Because there was nothing to understand, there was no understanding, no reason, no explanation. You're never too old to rebel against your parents and it will make the child you once were stronger and then you know how to avoid current situations in which you manage to be in where you feel you cannot be your real self and have to put up a friendly mask. That's what makes anyone tired. Because it literally costs energy. And writing can be a very safe form of rebellion because it's about control, about choosing words. An old friend of mine wrote me once a letter in which she apologized about a certain paragraph because it had so much scratches as she got so upset writing about her mother that words didn't do it anymore and she started frantically going with her pen on the paper. What a great letter that was. Because sometimes you just have to let yourself go.

Dennis

P.S. You wrote in your blog: 'She got spanked by her dad to learn a lesson many, many years ago, half a decade ago actually' It should be: half a century. And the link called 'blogpost' isn't working.

_________________
Everything I write here is my opinion, not absolute truths but I don't want to start every sentence with in my opinion...


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 12:04 pm 
Dennis,
But don’t you understand what I have understood or not understood? What you try to point out about me I THINK I have understood. Of course I can be wrong.
Karin


Report this post
Top
  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 10:50 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 2:06 am
Posts: 486
Location: Sweden
Karin wrote:
But don’t you understand what I have understood or not understood? What you try to point out about me I THINK I have understood.


There's a difference between THINKING you have understood, and FEELING you've understood. I say that there's no understanding in figuring out why a father beats his 4-year-old daughter.

Dennis

_________________
Everything I write here is my opinion, not absolute truths but I don't want to start every sentence with in my opinion...


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 1:04 pm 
Dennis,

You put the finger on it: I am entirely in my head (the left side). Not in any emotions or feelings at all. I have only understood things intellectually, if I have understood anything at all (in contrast to or unlike others)! But you can also doubt if I have any intelligence, so maybe I don't have either/or!!

Honestly, I don't think people see me as an extremely insensitive or totally impossible person. I probably have (many) blind spots, things I am not aware of. And when it comes to "handling" children people seem to think I have good hand with them, if that says anything at all. In fact a 7-year old (!!) Judith said to me on Monday after a mini-concert I had with 11 pupils for parents: -Karin, when you had been to my school before Christmas when I played for my class (and a parallel class) one of my classmates said "How cute she was" about you!! -Oh, how cute! I replied.

And you can of course wonder why she felt she wanted to say this to me? If she thought I needed to hear it? Or if she actually wanted to say it and feels (a mutual) liking??

What sort of discussion has this become: about who is enlightened and have understood and who hasn't?? Which by the way has nothing with this movie to do??

I have never seen myself as feminist, but... There are men that are real BULLIES, and they should stand for it!!?? Aren't there such tendencies here too?? Men-talk between, above others heads?? Above women's heads (and others heads too), who don't really measure up intellectually and/or when it comes to intelligence?? Or? But of course people can decide if they want to stay or not!??

Karin


Report this post
Top
  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 11:42 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 2:06 am
Posts: 486
Location: Sweden
We all have blind spots and I think it's important to keep an open door to that. Something that many are not willing to do.

Karin wrote:
What sort of discussion has this become: about who is enlightened and have understood and who hasn't?? Which by the way has nothing with this movie to do??


In my opinion it has nothing to do with 'others'. I'm not worried what others think or feel about me because I know how I feel about myself. I cannot ask others what they understand of me. As long as I can understand myself. But isn't it great that a movie opens a door that you haven't looked behind yet. That one thing leads to another, and leads to another. It's like a snowball rolling downhill.

Karin wrote:
I have never seen myself as feminist, but... There are men that are real BULLIES, and they should stand for it!!?? Aren't there such tendencies here too?? Men-talk between, above others heads?? Above women's heads (and others heads too), who don't really measure up intellectually and/or when it comes to intelligence?? Or? But of course people can decide if they want to stay or not!??


You have to know that people in Forums only see a part of a person: the part that writes. There is much more to every individual. Yes, there are men that are real bullies, just as there are women who are real bullies. If men are bullies, who educated these men into bullies? Isn't the mother usually the biggest influence on a child? Where does this hatred towards women come from in these male bullies? Maybe their mothers were weak and were abused and let abuse happen. How much power should you give an abusive person to let him allow to continue the abuse? My oldest sister was for 17 years in an abusive marriage and I've seen how deep denial goes in these type of women.

As a man, I've had to deal with male bullies as well, just like women. And if I couldn't change the situation, I left the situation. That's the choice every adult has. Only a person that respects himself or herself doesn't tolerate abuse, in whatever form. And that's hard in a world dominated by bullies. That's one of the reasons that I don't keep quiet; because the bullies shouldn't have the loudest mouth.

Dennis

_________________
Everything I write here is my opinion, not absolute truths but I don't want to start every sentence with in my opinion...


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 1:17 pm 
Quote:
Dennis wrote: If men are bullies, who educated these men into bullies? Isn't the mother usually the biggest influence on a child? Where does this hatred towards women come from in these male bullies? Maybe their mothers were weak and were abused and let abuse happen.


And it was exactly this my friend wrote so well about I think! Men (ad many others in power) excusing their abuse with this!! And of course women also excuse their problems with this… But the majority who seeks therapy and such things to deal with their problems (wanting to take responsibility for their own) are women? At least it has been so here in Sweden. I don’t know if this has changed or to what degree.

And who has been in power throughout history, and initiated wars etc.? Of course mothers have contributed to this too probably… To this anger and need to take revenge and taking revenge in the manner as has been done. See Hitler, Stain etc. And people with power today… Misusing their power. And my friend also wrote about that we also tend to accuse the bystander, who doesn’t intervene. As if this too lifts the responsibility from the perpetrator!!?? But of course it is problematic that witnesses and bystanders don’t intervene! And that people don’t react over both this and that in society. Feeling helpless and powerless about it or I don’t know? (But I think these feelings also can be dated back to our early history).

And, yes, men are exposed to bullies too! And sadly some (or even many) are so harmed so they can’t protect themselves constructively!! Which is so sad and even awful! And of course it’s wrong when men are bullied too!!! With no doubt.

But no matter how harmed one was one that doesn’t excuse abuse. You can’t blame your childhood or early history!? You can explain things with it, and we all can apologize, if we see or recognize things we have done (if we care about the other person)… Or admit to things if the other part points things out to us. I guess one should need a lot of self-awareness to judge what is right or wrong in what the other points out? Yes, these things are complex…

Quote:
Dennis wrote: My oldest sister was for 17 years in an abusive marriage and I've seen how deep denial goes in these type of women.


And isn’t this sad and awful! But what “type” of woman is your sister actually (and isn’t this contempt for weakness? Why wasn’t she able, as you were? What weak, lousy person is she? Or?)?? And who made her be this way? Was there only a weak mother behind, only a mother educating her?? Doesn’t the father have any responsibility?? Even if he happened to be absent!? Or maybe because he was absent??

And even if the mother was the one and only the child had to deal with earliest in her/his life, is that still any excuse for not taking responsibility for your problems later, for excusing what you say, how you behave, for being a bully yourself? And for treating others, innocent, badly? As grown ups we have “choices” as you pointed out!!

But, no, I don’t think it’s only or simply a question of “choice”(of just quitting and constructively protecting oneself), but this doesn’t say that there aren’t things one definitely can and shall condemn and don’t have to understand because a person was harmed, or even much harmed earliest in life.

Quote:
Dennis: You have to know that people in Forums only see a part of a person: the part that writes.


Thank you for telling me. Of course I didn’t know that!! Blindly and not hearing, seeing, sensing through 30 years working with people I haven’t understood this at all!! I had not the faintest idea about this. Tragically I haven’t understood anything at all. Am incapable of learning! Not flexible at all!! I have always had difficulties understanding and learning! And I am definitely unable of “understanding” others!!

Research about exhaustion, burnout and stress has found that “empathic” are at greater risk for being exhausted and burnt out… Less empathic manage things “better” (at least in short term, and what is “better” actually? A world full of un-empathic persons?).

Quote:
Dennis: And if I couldn't change the situation, I left the situation. That's the choice every adult has. Only a person that respects himself or herself doesn't tolerate abuse, in whatever form.


And the sad thing is that abused people often stay in abusive relations because of shame (and this shame added with self-blame can be dated back in life)… The worse they are treated the less able some becomes leaving the relation… So all who are able of just quitting are really to congratulate??? But I think that if you have a real self-awareness you also are aware that this isn’t the easiest thing to do for all people?? If you have a real self-knowledge you don’t condemn those who aren’t capable of doing this?? I don’t say I am good at this. You (can) feel compassion and empathy for the person/the persons, not capable of protecting themselves properly? And I guess this is also the best help for this person/these persons?? Instead of condemning her/him or (feeling and) showing contempt for him/her (consciously or unconsciously). But this doesn’t have to do with “att jamsa med” either at all!!!

And, yes, it is probably true that we have more choices than we are aware of?? And that we aren't exactly as helpless and powerless as we feel, and maybe feel very strongly and real?? We should probably be able to influence things to a much higher degree than we believe (politically for instance)? Many probably have options right in front of their noses as they don't see, maybe even walking through their whole life not seeing these options (because she/he was so badly and contemptuously treated ones, not least by her/his dad), and isn't that very sad and sometimes even tragic?

I am probably one of them (not seeing options)?? Even if sound sure here I am definitely not as sure, as it maybe sounds!!!

Karin


Report this post
Top
  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 1:31 pm 
You are preaching to Karin, although she seems to accept it. You tell her we all have blind spots, while at the same time you seem to have a major blind spot about yourself. You quote chapter and verse from Janov when it suits you, but nevertheless continue a long drawn out struggle with an intransigent person like Cesar (who has almost certainly done the most to scare off newcomers). You tolerate the abusive remarks he posted in a portfolio of forum topics since he first arrived.


Report this post
Top
  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Forum locked This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 22 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC + 1 hour [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group