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Childhood trauma and its consequences
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 Post subject: Re: Stuck
PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 3:45 am 
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Hi harigata.

Quote:
Is that OK to fucking say this here?
'Cauase in most places that'd be a fatal social fuckup.
Tired of life, wish I was dead.

To tell you the truth, I often wish there was an easy and painless way to say "Goodbye cruel world" once and for all. I'm a coward.... don't want to risk waking up after a suicide attempt in a worse state than when took the overdose. I know someone who overdosed on Paracetamol and woke up in hospital with permanent liver damage.

Without repression, a person can be faced with horrendous realizations.... not only about their own life, but about the way our society functions to cause emotional pain in all kinds of circumstances. Did you ever see the movie, The Matrix? Repression is represented by Blue pills. And outside the movie theatre Big Pharma is only too happy to sell 'em to ya!

There's only one consolation for me.... I don't have kids. I wouldn't wish what the future has in store for our overpopulated planet on my worst enemy!

It makes me uncomfortable to see both Dennis and mimsy lecturing you about your feelings.... as if you didn't know!

Hi mimsy.

I liked what you wrote about Alice Miller on Daniel's forum. It looked like a comprehensive and carefully worded defense of her right not to be 'perfect'. There are no infallible gurus or perfectly 'enlightened' people in this world.... Alice Miller says in Open Letters on her site "I'm not a guru".

I haven't posted for a long while because there's been a lot of arguing going on. It's been said before (don't ask me which post) but I'll say it again.... a publicly accessible forum is definitely NOT the right place for exposing vulnerable feelings. Harigata came here to recruit a primal buddy for "offline" work.... but the forum never served that function. It was tried on another site, but without success.... see this.... http://www.primal-page.com/cafe.htm

Furthermore.... I don't see how it could be anything but hit or miss. There aren't enough primal people online to keep this forum busy, let alone fill the need for primal buddies who live within easy reach of each other. Maybe it happens sometimes on the Primal-Support-Group mailing list.... I don't know.... the only way to find out is to join the list.

What I don't understand, mimsy, is why you don't use the board's "Private message" feature to contact harigata? It almost looks as though you want to engage in a symbolic struggle with Dennis.

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 Post subject: Re: Stuck
PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 8:35 am 
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Posts: 13
Quote:
Until I reached the point I let go and expressed the anger, agony and pain alone, fearing I couldn't do it alone. Nobody can feel the pain for you.
I am not afraid of expressing these things - I've been expressing them over and over for many years now (almost 10 years) and nothing changes. I experience a small release, but the deep grieving that comes from having someone actually present with the pain does not happen when I'm alone. I've done both kinds of grieving, and the difference of having someone to listen, care and offer support is several orders of magnitude.

For me, the absence of a witness is the sound of one hand clapping - there is no noise. I personally have gotten to the point where I can't complete my journey without a witness. I've done all that I can do by myself.

I also agree with something harigata said (are harigata and Daniel the same person? Sorry if I've missed something there!), which is that wounds that are cause by relationships can only be healed by relationships. Whether that's exactly what s/he said or not, that's how I feel. I've done huge quantities of my work alone; now it's time for me to seek others who want to share this path. And that doesn't mean I stop doing my work; I still do it, every day. I have no choice. If I don't do the work, I get stuck again, and slide back into the same old patterns.


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 Post subject: Re: Stuck
PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 9:42 am 
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Hi Bernard,
Quote:
It makes me uncomfortable to see both Dennis and mimsy lecturing you about your feelings.... as if you didn't know!
I'm not lecturing harigata about his feelings - I think whatever s/he feels is totally fine. I was more trying to suggest that he might get himself caught in a frustrating debate with Dennis if he's not careful.

It sounded to me like harigata came here to vent and possibly get some support and/or sympathy, and ended up getting in an 'argument' with Dennis instead. Harigata's last comments sounded angry and frustrated, and I was trying to suggest that maybe it's because Dennis is not giving him the response he needs, not because there's anything wrong with harigata's feelings!

Quote:
I liked what you wrote about Alice Miller on Daniel's forum.
:oops: Thanks!

Quote:
I haven't posted for a long while because there's been a lot of arguing going on. It's been said before (don't ask me which post) but I'll say it again.... a publicly accessible forum is definitely NOT the right place for exposing vulnerable feelings.
You're quite possibly right. As I said, I've come to the end of my rope with going it alone, so I'm trying anything and everything I can think of - therapy, energy work, talking to friends, commenting on blogs/forums. I'll go check out the link you gave, thank you for that.

Quote:
Furthermore.... I don't see how it could be anything but hit or miss. There aren't enough primal people online to keep this forum busy, let alone fill the need for primal buddies who live within easy reach of each other.
Well - I'm not a 'primal' person, I've come here via a different route. I'm more looking for the enlightened witness approach, which so far has been a matter of persuading friends to stretch their comfort zones a bit and explore some emotional topics a little more deeply than we've done in the past. It's slow going, but the advantage is that we have common ground and see/talk to each other somewhat regularly, so there's a kind of continuity that I find incredibly important.

Quote:
Maybe it happens sometimes on the Primal-Support-Group mailing list.... I don't know.... the only way to find out is to join the list
I might check that out - I don't have the sense that primal is the right direction for me. But then I don't really know much about it! Just some stuff I came across on Janov a while back (in my various readings) kind of turned me off to the idea. It seemed potentially dangerous, was the sense I got. And a couple of times when I first let loose many years of repressed emotions, I could sense how easy it would be to go too far, to go over the edge and not come back. For me I need the sense of some kind of anchor, like if I was a climber and someone was holding onto the other end of the rope while I climbed down into the abyss. Lots more thoughts about all that, could discuss if you're interested.

Quote:
What I don't understand, mimsy, is why you don't use the board's "Private message" feature to contact harigata? It almost looks as though you want to engage in a symbolic struggle with Dennis.
Good point! I used the public feature because that's where harigata started the conversation, I guess it didn't occur to me to go private. My initial impulse is that private contact could be seen as invasive or intrusive? I don't know. I'm hoping to hear from harigata on all this at some point!

As to a 'symbolic struggle with Dennis' - well, I'm not sure exactly what you mean. I disagree with Dennis about some things, and when I saw some of the things he said to harigata - well, I thought some of them were unkind, and unnecessarily harsh and discouraging, especially when the guy's coming here to look for help!

What I'm personally looking for is a group of people who want to learn how to help each other heal in mutually respectful ways that allow us to build trust and grow gradually stronger. And maybe an internet forum is not the place for that! But I'm willing to try.

Gah, I cannot for the *life* of me seem to write short comments . . . and carrying on this two- or three-way conversation is a bit exhausting! maybe I'll be persuaded to try private messages after all, just because then I only have to write to one person at a time and my head doesn't hurt so much :-)

Thank you for your comments, Bernard, they feel helpful and supportive and make me think!

* * * * *
Dennis, another thought - you said

Quote:
nobody can feel the pain for you.
I agree. I'm not looking for someone to feel the pain 'for' me - I'm looking for someone to sit with me while I experience the pain. Someone to offer comfort, support, reassurance. There's somewhere an idea of the 'crucible', which is like an emotional container that allows the work to happen - that can hold/withstand the heat of the process, and keep from burning up the person experiencing the emotions. Hope that made any sense?

The word compassion means to "feel with" not to feel 'for'. It means to resonate with, to vibrate sympathetically. I'm sure you know all this, but I think it's worth saying again.


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 Post subject: Re: Stuck
PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 9:54 am 
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Bernard wrote:
Without repression, a person can be faced with horrendous realizations.... not only about their own life, but about the way our society functions to cause emotional pain in all kinds of circumstances.
Very true! One of my favorite quotes, from Lily Tomlin, says essentially the same thing: "Reality is the leading cause of stress among those in touch with it."

I also have had the same thoughts about suicide that you mention - what if I fuck it up, and am left worse off than before? Exactly! There's an old song by a band called Queen that went

Don't try suicide, nobody's worth it
Dont' try suicide, nobody cares
Don't try suicide, you're just gonna HATE it!
Don't try suicide, nobody gi-ives a damn . . .

I guess what I finally realized is that I don't actually want to DIE, I just want the PAIN to stop. 'Cause in spite of the pain, there's lots of cool things about life. It's just hard sometimes to remember what they are when you're hurting . . .


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 Post subject: Re: Stuck
PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 9:16 pm 
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Quote:
I feel Janov has fallen pray to the old therapists' disease of EDUCATING (that is, being mean to a person in pain as retaliation for the same having been done to you - taking it out on the next generation, so to speak), and that he has bequeathed his malevolent terminology to.... everybody.
I'm not a primaller, so I don't know what 'malevolent terminology' you mean. Do you mean that therapists take out their own pain on others?

Quote:
I kept looking for a person who would let me express my pain, and my repressed shit is not very pleasant or polite or fit for 19th century cultured parlour conversations....
I would guess most people feel like our 'repressed shit' is not very pleasant or polite, which is why it's repressed in the first place. I think it's a matter of finding someone you trust and feel comfortable with, and then not attacking them with one's pain and anger. I've learned that many people are FRIGHTENED of the level of pain and anger I have inside me, for whatever reasons - maybe they're repressing their own shit, or maybe it's just scary stuff.

Quote:
I cannot use my head, piece of shit don't work.
Now who's being self-critical? :-)

Quote:
the minute I sit down to write I feel my mother at my shoulder telling me how worthless everything I do is, and my father contributing his two rotten cents....
Have you tried telling them to shut the fuck up?

I have an image in my mind that my critical parents are like rats coming out from manholes in the street, and in my head I just whack them over the head, repeatedly, with a big ol' cast iron skillet, until they scuttle back into their holes. It's more a cartoon image, not bloody or gory, but it's effective. And sometimes, if no one's around, I'll just shout it out at them: "Shut the fuck up! You jerks!" Or whatever, and rant at them til they go away. You can also shrink them down and stomp them, or wad them up like a ball of paper and flick them off the edge of your mental screen.

I think the important thing with this Alice Miller approach is to stop aiming the anger at oneself and aim it instead at the people who deserve it, namely the parents. Depression is anger turned inward; turning it outward at the people who hurt us feels scary as shit, but it WORKS.

Quote:
can't get out of bed in the morning most days, because I'm so tired of having spent so much energy with 0 results. Constant failure and all those things I can't get out festering inside,
Well, you could try writing here, just like you're doing! I don't know if it makes you feel any better, but I'm another person who struggles to get out of bed, sleeping is one time the pain goes away for a while, though I have many strange dreams. One thing I've said to help myself with this is that it's ok to sleep, ok to stay in bed. It's our body and psyche telling us we need to rest, doing the best we can in impossible circumstances.

Can you, instead of being angry with yourself, say, "Ah, poor harigata, so tired, so _______ (fill in whatever words you need)." Can you have some empathy for that part of yourself that's having such a hard time?

Quote:
no quiet corner to hide in in this slavehouse they call Israel.
Forgive my ignorance as to what exactly you mean by this, but this sounds like a major piece of your puzzle. If your environment is totally fucked up, maybe you can blame the situation for your misery rather than yourself?


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 Post subject: Re: Stuck
PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2008 12:59 am 
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Do you think there's anything that could help you? If you could say exactly what you needed, and you could somehow get whatever it was, what would that thing be?


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 Post subject: Re: Stuck
PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2008 1:15 am 
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Another thought: If the world is basically FUBAR, trying to fix ourselves individually is a waste of time. And since most of us can't fix the whole world, or even the relatively small portion of it that we personally occupy, what's left? What can we do?

I don't know about anybody else here, but I still have hope. I'm still trying to reach out and connect with anybody who will reach out and connect in return. Kind of the ol' message in a bottle thing. If you're a Sting fan, there's

I wrote an SOS to the world
I hope that someone gets my

Message in a bottle

Walked out this morning
Don't believe what I saw
Hundred, billion bottles
Washed up on the shore

Seems I'm not alone in bein' alone
Hundred billion castaways
Lookin' for a home . . .


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 Post subject: Re: Stuck
PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2008 10:42 pm 
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Harigata - I'm sorry you're having such a hard time finding what you're looking for. The things you list as 'not therapy' actually *do* work for me, and are what have helped me away from the edge of feeling suicidal and imagining death as the only way to stop the pain.

I hope you find someone to help you do what you're trying to do.


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 Post subject: Re: Stuck
PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2008 11:18 pm 
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Hi Bernard, nice to see you back. I know some people come here and only argue it seems, but it’s unavoidable. But I hope some people get some more out of this place... I’m not lecturing Daniel what to feel or when to feel, I emphasize the importance of feeling. It’s up to him how and when and I tried to say that there are no limits to feeling. As you say, he knows that already, but we live in a society where almost everything is set up NOT to feel. Go to a doctor and chances are that you get pills to repress those feelings. Go to a therapist, and chances are you talk away the feelings. So even if Daniel or anyone else knows intellectually that it’s important to feel, it cannot hurt to emphasize it.

I agree that a public forum is not the best place to expose your vulnerable feelings. At first I mentioned http://www.topica.com/lists/ourchildhood.int to Daniel because it’s a protected forum where like-minded people can be found and some of them may offer some help. I assume Daniel isn’t interested in it and I see now that he has had experiences with the Primal-Support-Group mailing list and refers to the people there being stuck in primal masturbation. I say that the majority of people there, make Primal the way of life, almost like a new religion, instead of a tool to repair their lives. I also believe that the administrator Pat doesn’t have a full grasp of what Primal Therapy should be like. But that’s another topic.

Daniel, whatever is written here, isn’t going to change 35 years of suffering. If words would do that, then surely the entire world would have been healed already. People have had different experiences in their childhoods. Some people have had enormous prenatal and post natal trauma and suffered great neglect during their first year(s). Others have had suffered terrible teen years, some even both. But here at the forum, words is all we have but it's not a replacement for life. At best it's a tool - one out of many tools hopefully - to repair your life and life in general, at worst it's a place to vent and act out.

Saying to me that I don’t know what I’m talking about, isn’t going to help anyone. You can quote the exact words that didn’t make sense to you. It’s okay if people disagree, but to disagree with every person seems to me that you re-create the struggle that you had with your parents who disagreed with everything you said and did. It’s terrible to have been stuck with parents like that, but you’re never too old to rebel. If they feel as if they are still looking over your shoulder, kick their asses. Any man who doesn’t rebel against his father, is destined to become him. Your voice belongs to you.

A woman once told me that she knew a woman who spent 15 years projecting her anger onto her enlightened witness before she was ready to project it on her own parents. To me that sounded as an awful amount of time and an incredible sacrifice for the person who helped her this way. It shows how strong repression and defense can be. What a life to be someone's toxic waste basket for 15 years. This is what happens when 2 damaged people - each in their own different way - try to heal.

Another thing I noticed is that some people take offense to ‘lecturing’ here, but reply with lecturing as well. Some people, like Mimsy – with all her good intentions – are against critique but criticize others (me in this case). These things happen but as far as I can tell, they don’t overshadow this forum. If you look at other forums, such as those about politics, or global warming, then this forum is like a walk in the park. People do make mistakes though and let’s take care not to repeat them.

Janov doesn’t describe how to do therapy or how to help yourself. But Jean Jensson and Stettbacher do, and you can use Janov's books and integrate them with the others to work on your life. And that’s why it’s important that Alice Miller got critique for the way she has spoken out against them because people do or did listen to her (that’s what every writer wants – you don’t have to deny being a guru about it).

Daniel, could you quote Janov where he says or it shows ‘being mean to a person in pain as retaliation for the same having been done to’? Have you tried seeking bioenergetic therapists that skip the talk, if you feel that words won’t help you? Some therapists wave away their fees if you cannot afford it. It’s shocking though to read how you were tortured by a so-called pseudo primal therapist who left you alone with unprotected pain. Did you report him?

Harigata wrote:
I want others to suffer to. I want other people to go through the same, to feel what it's like to be buried alive.....


If this is not re-creating a struggle, then I give up. Making others to suffer is giving in to abuse. It’s the vicious circle of violence. And you don’t have to take my word for it for a guy who doesn’t know what he’s talking about, but when I was 21, I lived with my parents again, without a job and eventually without income. I had to sell anything that had value, just to buy basic necessities. I usually didn’t come out of bed before noon because I had no clue how to live on. I escaped in dreams when I was asleep. Before I came in touch with the books of Miller and Janov, I had even taped black plastic in front of my roof window, taped the digits on my clock and VCR, just because I wanted it pitch-dark at night, I was sensitive to any distraction. I didn’t know what it meant, but eventually, after some months, maybe even half a year, I could remove the plastic and feel good about the light. I also went to a therapist for a while, who kept asking me: What do you want? And I kept telling him: I don’t know what I want, I know what I DON’T want and that was much more important to me. His distraction therapy didn’t work on me as if I had a button in my head that I could just push. So at the end he told me I had to accept I had a terrible life and that I would always suffer. I told him it was my last day with him. Then he drew a coffin on his white board. That’s your future, he told me, if you going to leave. 13 years later and I can say that I’m alive and well, without the help of any therapist, but due to my belief that suffering is not self-evident. No one is doomed for life, unless you believe in the devil. And I know how you feel about smashing up your place. You see, I’ve done that as well, and it didn’t help. I needed to see the chaos around me to realize my life was chaos.

People once needed their repression in order to survive but as adults a sudden exposure to it is dangerous. I don’t think there’s a risk for that here. People here have control over it. If it gets too much, they leave or take a break. No one here is forcing anyone to take more pain then they can handle. This is not a course or a therapist session that people pay big money for so they are forced to continue coming.

All I can say is that if you haven't found what you've looking for, keep looking. You don't want the assholes in this world come out as the winners.

Dennis

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Everything I write here is my opinion, not absolute truths but I don't want to start every sentence with in my opinion...


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 Post subject: Re: Stuck
PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 11:21 pm 
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I thought your last post appeared to me more sensible. I do understand these mood swings though. Like you say, it's not anything that we can control. It strikes whenever it does. That's why it's important to see the whole person, to put things in perspective. And Forums are limited means for that, I agree.

Harigata wrote:
Some woman from Co-Canceling, when I started talking about my parents and, like, really going deep, had suddenly told me something along the lines "well, they didn't MEAN to hurt you" - advocating, for my parents.


More and more I start to think that ALL psychologists and therapists are defenders of the parental dogma. I don't even get it why anyone would say that to a person who's describing the terrible sufferings he went through because of his parent(s) behavior. "They didn't mean to hurt you" is such a crappy phrase. Or this one is common, too: "They didn't know any better". If a parent says to me: "I didn't know any better", I tell them: "Do you WANT to know any better?". And the truth is: They don't WANT to know any better because everything is already spelled out, ready to be heard or be read. And they refuse to investigate that.

Even a therapist like Daniel Mackler, who sides with the child unconditionally it seems, doesn't go to confront the parents of his clients. The reason why I couldn't be a therapist is exactly that: I can't say to a person who's confiding in me with terrible experiences: "That'll be 150 Dollars, thank you." My gut reaction would be: I'm going to his or her parents and show them how it is to pick on a weaker person. But our society is not made like that. Parental perpetrators are protected.

Harigata wrote:
Spent the last couple of days at my mother's place. Wish I'd stayed longer, TV is a wonderful distraction, and I ain't got it here....


There's nothing wrong with entertainment. Anyone deserves a holiday away from your problems. Finding things that can give you some joy, is part of life. Never give that up.

Dennis

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Everything I write here is my opinion, not absolute truths but I don't want to start every sentence with in my opinion...


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