An Analysis Of The Limits Of Alice Miller

Plenty of stuff to discuss in the world, with the focus on causes
Cesar Tort

Post by Cesar Tort »

In another thread I said that I would not post again in this site. However ?:
Jim Rich wrote: Untreated trauma victims such as those in the Forum just go on defending/attacking, avenging, abusing, lying, and spoiling everything and everyone in an unconscious effort to get revenge for their early injuries and find peace...
D.R.B. wrote: It sounds like a description of the person on Daniel's forum who makes more posts than anybody else. That person said about Chickadee: "She has to be taught a lesson in that forum." The language of poisonous pedagogy.
D.R.B. wrote: Although there are too many posts each week for me to keep up with [?]
It?s precisely because you didn?t keep up with all the post that you missed why I wanted to stop Chickadee from giving poisonous advises to na?ve parents.
Daniel wrote:I don?t agree with Chickadee being taught an emotional lesson, and I think that when we have a desire to teach someone a lesson it probably is as you/Jim Rich say: a desire to get revenge on the parents.
Did you guys read the latter Psych Forum exchange? It sounds that you just got scared of my rhetoric! Please take a look at the above link. You can judge me after that.
D.R.B.

Post by D.R.B. »

It's precisely because you didn't keep up with all the post that you missed why I wanted to stop Chickadee from giving poisonous advises to naïve parents.
You're wrong there, Cesar. I read enough to see what you wanted to do. Only people with empty lives would have enough time to read everthing that gets posted in Daniel's forum.
It sounds that you just got scared of my rhetoric! Please take a look at the above link. You can judge me after that.
"Scared" isn't the word, Cesar, "disgusted" is more like it. If people follow your example they can make judgements whenever they like. They don't need your permission. I've read quite enough at Daniel's forum to judge you from your words alone.
Cesar Tort

Post by Cesar Tort »

D.R.B.:

So you don?t find good what Dennis and I did in the PsychForum? Are you judging me, who tried to stop that woman from giving psychiatric, anti-child advises to na?ve parents, and you don?t judge the woman? Hasn?t Miller, Daniel and Dennis made harsh, and I would say fair and accurate, judgments of other people? Isn?t poisonous pedagogy refraining oneself from judging a perpetrator caught in fraganti?
Guest

Post by Guest »

I have read some of that exchange on the other forum. It is hard to convince anyone on an intellectual level about spanking. From their feelings they should know that spanking is wrong, it should feel wrong.


Just convincing parents that spanking is wrong is unlikely to make them much better parents. Parenting is such a fulltime job that I think the neurosis will just come out in different forms of abuse. To become "good" parents means that they have to go through some basic changes as people.

But it is understandable about wanting to stop people from giving such bad and damaging advice.

Phil
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Post by Daniel Mackler »

D.R.B. wrote:It's perfectly OK if your forum is mainly for preaching to the converted. That's your prerogative.
Not the case. All are welcome and I very much enjoy interacting with and debating people who do not share my point of view ? and, heaven forbid, learning from them!!! But of course, like all human beings, I also enjoy engaging with like-minded people.
Daniel Mackler

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Post by Daniel Mackler »

Daniel wrote:I don?t agree with Chickadee being taught an emotional lesson, and I think that when we have a desire to teach someone a lesson it probably is as you/Jim Rich say: a desire to get revenge on the parents.
Cesar Tort wrote:Did you guys read the latter Psych Forum exchange? It sounds that you just got scared of my rhetoric! Please take a look at the above link. You can judge me after that.
I reread it and I see you make some good points. She is confused and defending her abusiveness. The rhetoric, however, that you said elsewhere (?sadistic pleasure in teaching her a lesson? is how I remember it, though it may have been different) bothered me. Again, you may have meant it for the sake of humor ? or perhaps were tapping into something more honest than many of us will admit ? but I took it seriously.
Daniel Mackler

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Cesar Tort

Post by Cesar Tort »

Daniel:
In the Primal Therapy thread of your forum I wrote:I?d be disappointed if someone of you doesn?t join me with my sadistic mind game.
That was a purposefully confrontational, provocative and inflammatory remark. That the intent was black humor can be demonstrated in the fact that I was not ?sadistic? with Chickadee in my two posts in the PsychForum, as can be ascertained in the above link. My goal was to scandalize people in your forum, which I did. The first to reply was Kaleo, then John, CC and finally Dennis. My provoking remark was a success and people posted replies in that forum.

However, I will refrain myself from now on in your forum because no one there seems to grasp my black humor. Such humor is rare and, to boot, it?s impossible to convey without facial expressions (internet faces don?t help much).
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Post by Daniel Mackler »

Thanks for the clarification of your quotation and your points.

Humor is tough over the internet, that's for sure - especially when it's on such deep subjects. Aside from my Hypocrite's Dictionary on my website, I usually use little or no humor in my internet writing, because people can so easily take it the wrong way, and that ends up defeating my purpose.

Of course, it might make me seem dry or dull, but that's a sacrifice I have chosen to make.
Daniel Mackler

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Post by Dennis »

Phil wrote:Just convincing parents that spanking is wrong is unlikely to make them much better parents.
I wouldn't enter a parenting forum or a childrearing forum or start a private correspondence with a spanking parent. But this forum is about child abuse. Lots of kids there who are describing horrible abuse they are suffering. Extremes like a parent pushing burning cigarettes on his child. And most of them are struggling with the question: is this abuse. Even if Chickadee cannot be reached now, it might happen another time when she meets a similar person. But what's most important is the message to children: spanking is wrong and it's hurtful and you have the basic right to express that hurt.

Every kid in Sweden learns in school that spanking is wrong and that it's against the law. So when it happens, they know how to respond more naturally against such an unnatural act. That was my main intention why I responded in that forum where I originally ended up just to promote this forum. I don't lose any sleep over it to speak my mind about this when I encounter it. Silence is often at the side of the perpetrator.

Dennis
Cesar Tort

Post by Cesar Tort »

Right: that?s the wise sacrifice, Daniel.

I?d like to end this conversation about the people on denial at the PsychForum with a quote from another forum: your words in own forum, section New definitions for the Hypocrite's Dictionary:

Never: Sometimes, often, or always, as in "I never abuse my children, except when they deserve it, just as I deserved the abuse that I never got."

A perfect portrait of Chickadee et al! :lol:
Guest

Post by Guest »

Hi Dennis,

About spanking, well I can see what you are saying. Here in the US there are a multitude of people who believe in spanking. Many states still allow ing in schools. That should stop.
It's just that I see spanking as just one example of parental abuse. It would be impossible to list all the other examples and outlaw them. I don't see that as an answer. I would be happy with a law against spanking but am doubtful of the benefits. Also, I don't see it happening anytime soon here where I live. Not when people think it's fine to own guns and we are still arguing that it is OK to execute criminals. So maybe we need to start with those things. Sweden is way ahead of us.
We will get a law on spanking when most people already agree it is wrong. The law will then put that down in writing. We rarely get laws which are way ahead of what the population thinks.

Here we have agencies that are supposed to deal with child abuse. In severe cases the child is removed from the parents. That will end up being something else to primal. At the point the children are removed they have already been subjected to a huge amount of abuse. This is usually for somewhat older children who go to school and the abuse is seen. We can only imagine how they were raised as infants. There are laws against child abuse. They aren't working. Passing laws may be a nice thing to try, but how is a law against spanking enforced. Young children are spanked before they are talking. Noone will know about this. The truth is, parents can do whatever they want with their young children. We have psychotic and/or pre-psychotic people with children. Then there are all those other things that the average person would not even see as abuse. Not to mention institutional abuse which goes on in hospitals etc.

Regards,
Phil
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Post by Phil »

It looks like my PC edited the word spanking from my last post. Instead of spanking what you see is "ing". My PC doesn't even want me to be talking about spanking!

Phil
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Dennis
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Post by Dennis »

I was wondering what euphemism you were using. Is that built-in censorship in your computer? I'll correct the words for you...

Dennis
Guest

Post by Guest »

Thanks Dennis,

I have a "cyber sitter" program on my computer to filter internet content for my two children. I can suspend it's operations when I want. Apparently even it knows spanking is not right.

Phil
Cesar Tort

Post by Cesar Tort »

I thought that this chapter was over but there?s an ongoing duel in the Psychforum that merits out attention.
Dennis wrote: Extremes like a parent pushing burning cigarettes on his child. And most of them are struggling with the question: is this abuse.
That?s what I call a lower psychoclass.
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